the following position was reached after Bayonnet attack in Kings Indian, the Idea being that white gives up the exchange for compensation (bishop pair and passed pawn - I think)
What I didn't really understand was how to proceed and went from a very promising position to one that is almost instantly losing. Can anyone help me understand what I should have done and why and possibly the reasons why I lost because I cannot quite see it myself. For example was it wrong to trade a pair or rooks? What is really the nature of whites compensation and how can it be exploited? Many thanks in advance - regards Robbie.
Hi Robbie,
This is not an ending! An ending is King and one bit + pawns -v- King one but + pawns.
Your note here with you to move.
Saying you don't know what to do.
In that situation never go nothing active. tidy up your position. His bits are on what looks like
good squares keeping you at bay. So you pass and let him screw it up.
White's position is screaming out for luft so h3 would be my choice.
Read the board looking for things.
Look at the diagram What is the White Queen doing?
She is defending both Bishops. That is a Unicorn playing with a Cyclops. An accident
just waiting to happen. Perhaps after h3 pull the d5 Bishop back to b3.
That is two passes up your sleeve. Let him worry about you playing Rc7 when you are
ready. Also with the back rank safe (after h3) Black will be wasting time looking for your
new threats and this is a 'here be ghosts' position.
They will hopefully/usually see something that is not there and loosen their position.
After h3 they will be looking at you playing g4.
Swapping on g7 here...
must be wrong, especially when you could have played Qe2 keeping the pot boiling.
After the double exchange on g7 you are indeed in an ending (King and one bit + pawns
-v- King one but + pawns. and it looks lost.
Originally posted by greenpawn34Thanks GP, trading rooks was a bad idea, but can you see my problem, i dont know what to do so I sharpen the game when there was no real necessity to do so. It weakened my entire back rank for the rook belongs on d1 I think and h3 g4 is definitely the way to go.
Hi Robbie,
This is not an ending! An ending is King and one bit + pawns -v- King one but + pawns.
Your note here with you to move.
[fen]5r2/pp2r2k/4P1pp/3BQn2/1q6/8/PB3PPP/2R3K1[/fen]
Saying you don't know what to do.
In that situation never go nothing active. tidy up your position. His bits are on what looks like
good squares keeping y ...[text shortened]... re indeed in an ending (King and one bit + pawns
-v- King one but + pawns. and it looks lost.
In this position here, after blacks 27...Qxe7
g4! is the move and black is in a really tight spot as its difficult for hm to stop the pawns rolling (if Knight h4 then f4), instead I played the total wussy f3?? I mean what the heck is that supposed to be?
I actually think this is quite a difficult game to follow if you don't know the theory. To your compensating advantages for the exchange sacrifice I would add that the Black king position is a little airy and the dark squares in particular the a1 to h8 diagonal is weak. This becomes clearer when you see 20. ...Qb6 answered by 21. Bb2 and now have to work out what happens if Black takes either the e6 pawn (one of your supposed advantages) or the b4 pawn which are both en-prise.
Of course this doesn't happen because in the games you are following the GMs have probably worked out the ramifications of all this beforehand. - I found one GM game that went as far as your 22nd move then varied with 22. ...Rad8. I expect there were others but I don't know where you started playing on your own.
After 23. ...Nf5 you have to see why the instinctive lash out 24. g4 can't be played immediately - Rxe6 of course.
Once you reach the position with white to play move 28.
I really don't see why your g3 should objectively weaker as a pass than GP's h3 if we are claiming your two bishops are more active than black's pieces which are tied down blockading e6 and defending b7, g7 and h8. Of course if your suggestion of 28. g4 was dismissed at move 24 then there is less reason why you would consider it at move 28 even though the black queen no longer prevents it as she did after Qxb4 and you picked up the g pawn to move it one square. I don't know - difficult one.
Originally posted by moonbusI have analysed it with a computer afterwards moonbus and white is winning after g4 from the said position, with a plus of 2.2 It would not be fair to you. Although saying that even with post game computer analysis at my disposal, the prospect of losing still beckons!
Hi Robbie. Interesting position. I'm willing to play it out (unrated--no risk) and see where it goes. You take White from move 28. g4 (or whatever). PM me if interested.
Originally posted by RagwortThankyou Ragwort for taking the time, i will think about this and try to get back to you once my blitz fever has passed! It comes upon one from time to time and I need to get rid of it by taking beating after beating after beating!
I actually think this is quite a difficult game to follow if you don't know the theory. To your compensating advantages for the exchange sacrifice I would add that the Black king position is a little airy and the dark squares in particular the a1 to h8 diagonal is weak. This becomes clearer when you see 20. ...Qb6 answered by 21. Bb2 and now have to work out ...[text shortened]... did after Qxb4 and you picked up the g pawn to move it one square. I don't know - difficult one.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieHi Robbie. Thanks for the warning. It looks to me like after 28. g4, either ...Ng7 or ...Nh4, the White k-side pawn mass starts moving, and Black's cramped position is bound to get wrong-footed pretty soon. The Black R cannot leave the 8th so long as there is a mate threat on h8, effectively hobbling the R. The Black Q is wasting away just preventing the e-pawn from advancing. Looks like a convincing win for the B pair.
I have analysed it with a computer afterwards moonbus and white is winning after g4 from the said position, with a plus of 2.2 It would not be fair to you. Although saying that even with post game computer analysis at my disposal, the prospect of losing still beckons!
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI'm aware of your parallel thread on chess.com regarding this game. To be quite honest it looks as if most of your responders have done as you have, switched on an engine and pronounced that you missed a winning move 28. g4. If that is all you take from this post game analysis then I think you have stopped short. After all it will only apply in the unlikely event you will have this exact position again. Only GP has identified why you lost which was exchanging off twice on g7 on move 29 and 30 which effectively broke the bind you had over black. That is probably because he is the strongest OTB player that you have had access to in this process.
Thankyou Ragwort for taking the time, i will think about this and try to get back to you once my blitz fever has passed! It comes upon one from time to time and I need to get rid of it by taking beating after beating after beating!
What I think happened here is (and I've seen it and done it hundreds of times) is that one more or less blindly follows a few super GM games quite deeply believing we have played the best moves. Then there is a variance and we find ourselves in a position we don't really understand. In this case there is a material imbalance so that a basic reference point is gone and we are having to deal with quite complex dynamic factors. Remember the GMs on both sides go for these positions and therefore have faith in what they are doing. In topical lines they will have looked quite deeply before the game even starts, assessing potential endgames, neutralizing all the two, three, four and five movers along the way and, with the help of their computers, try to map a way forward through the labyrinth, having translated the reams of analysis into pithy one line "rules of thumb" to guide their deliberations at the board. You can bet your life they know what to if Black took one of the offered pawns at move 21! So, landed in this mess with a pithy one line rule of thumb and little back up analysis we thrash about and take the first opportunity to simplify out of it even if the endgame we enter is lost. But at least our head stops hurting right?
If you intend to play this or similar lines you have to look at whether you know in general what you need to win a bishop and pawn ending against a rook and pawn and resist the temptation to go into endings that don't deliver that up front. You need to know how to press for a clear advantage in dynamic positions especially those where you have a bind, even if that means no more than providing the opportunity for your opponent to go wrong. Understand what defensive strategies your opponent might be putting up - in this case offering to exchange off the pieces that are causing him pain and avoid complying with them. It's a lot of work but chess is a difficult game.
Originally posted by RagwortYou know my play has inspired you to take up this line! look how good it is for white, black is practically busted after move 22!
I'm aware of your parallel thread on chess.com regarding this game. To be quite honest it looks as if most of your responders have done as you have, switched on an engine and pronounced that you missed a winning move 28. g4. If that is all you take from this post game analysis then I think you have stopped short. After all it will only apply in the unlikely ...[text shortened]... ausing him pain and avoid complying with them. It's a lot of work but chess is a difficult game.
But to the text, I must say old chap with some sincerity that l i did not simply switch on an engine. What I did was try to understand why I had lost without the help of anyone or anything. ONLY when i could not find the answer did I ask on here and on chess.com because I have no one else to ask as I don’t know any other chess players near where I live.
I was not actually that moved by the move 28.g4 as winning although I could understand why in retrospect. I was interested in the winning plan and for this i received answers that i knew in a kind of hazy fashion from looking at master games. White expands on the Kingside by pushing his pawns. I knew this from a Shirov game in particular that I had studied in some depth prior to playing this game. Where I failed was in not working out the details. Nor was I blindly following a master game. I had studied several games from the excellent John Cox chessbase CD, with annotations. Not only that I understood what white was trying to achieve and why. I even knew what I had to do but somehow I lacked the nerve to prosecute the Kingside pawn storm, even though I understood it forms part of whites compensation.
I will take the rest of your text on board for its very true, i do have a tendency to simplify a position when doing so only eases my opponents burden. Many thanks for taking the time.
Hi Robbie, further to Rag’s comments about getting the theory right, I would like to recommend a book to you and to anyone who aspires to crack the 2000 barrier (I’m workin’ on it, but at 60, time’s running out for me): Chess Strategy for Club Players, The Road to Positional Advantage, by Herman Grooten. I’ve got a meter-wide shelf of chess books, and Grooten’s is the best I’ve seen for explaining the elements of positional analysis. When to exchange rooks, good knight vs. bad bishop, bishop pair, strong/weak squares, passers, color complexes --- all the elements are clearly explained and example games are given.
I’ve had a look at your game while reviewing his book. I’ll take the position from 25. Rc1, Black to move.
The essential features of the position are the following: White has an advanced passer, a centralized active Q supporting the passer, a R on an open file, more space, and a bishop pair. This is a substantial list of advantages, and Capa would have squeezed a win out of even one of those. Advantages are things you should increase. White’s K is safe, but White must watch out for back-rank mates. White has potential mate threats on g7 and h8. Notes for Black: Black has a slight material advantage. Black’s king is “airy” (too many holes around him, allowing potential access, especially via f6 and the entire 7th rank). The Black Q is doing nothing on the wrong flank; the e8 R is wasted blocking White’s passer, and the f8 R would have control of a half-open file, but the N is blocking it. The only really effectively placed Black piece is the N on f5.
Given the above static analysis, the following suggests itself as a plausible goal for White: he has two threats on the board (mate on g7 or h8, and an advanced passer); he should increase both threats simultaneously, as Black will have trouble meeting two threats simultaneously (due to his poorly coordinated pieces and cramped position).
This suggests the following concrete steps to reach the goal: 1. Exchange the White R for a Black R (Grooten: when in possession of an advanced passer, get heavy pieces off the board); but make sure the White K has an escape square. 2. Force the Black N away from f5, wrong-footing his one really well-posted piece; g2-g4 is the obvious way to do this, and at the same time provide the White K his escape square. 3. Prepare to advance the White K-side pawns, to break open the Black K-position and force an entry (increasing mate threats). 4. Be prepared to advance the e-pawn if consistent with its safety (increasing the other threat).
Now, let’s try to imagine what Black’s optimum defensive set up might look like to counter the above plan. He should get his N to do the job of blockading the e-pawn; so the N should go to e7. This will leave g7 unprotected, so the obvious defender would be a R on g8, to cover both mate threats on g7 and h8. The b7-pawn will also have to be protected, so it will probably have to be advanced to b6. Now where to put the Black Q? Somewhere central: d6 or f5 maybe. In the diagram below, I have placed two Black queens on the board for reference only, but of course there won’t really be two of them; and I have made no moves for White at all; this sort of visualization exercise is essential (as opposed to 'I go here, he goes there, I go here, he goes there' type of thinking--which is very error prone).
This, or something near to this, would minimize Black’s weaknesses. Whether he can actually achieve this set up is another matter, and it will be White’s job to hinder this set up. OK so far with theoretical analysis? Let’s play out a couple of lines and see how White could realize his plan and foil Black’s optimum defensive set up.
Here is a 'retreat' variation:
Ya had 'm, Robbie--ya had 'im, but you relaxed and let him slip away. Shucks.
Black has the threat of Ng7 freeing the f8 Rook from defending h8 hitting f2 and threatening Rf5.
Also the back rank hangs.
OTB thinking....and surely this is what this site is for so we can
become better 'real chess players'. You go the comfortable way
and only mix it taking severe risks if the position demands it.
How many GM live games have you seen where the player plays
the 2nd, 3rd or 4h best move over the online computer's evaluation.
Keep it within your range strike whilst the iron is hot, not luke warm.
Personally I could not take the Rook off the back rank.
You now have a Queen holding two Bishops and holding e1.
The Queen attacks things, it does not defend. She is holding three things.
One nudge and the game falls to bits. Yes dogmatic but good dogmatism.
I did not see g4 back here. There again I'm not liking the passive defence
that Black is being given. Why play Rfe8 in answer to Rc7. Black can keep
the Rook on f8 and play Rxc7 Qxc7+ Qe7. a new game except White's active
Rook has gone along with Black passive Rook and the f8 Rook is still on f8.
In this line if White swaps on e7 intending Ba3 then we get here.
And Black unpins with Rc8 the kind of move that always hangs over
a player who has not yet created luft. That is why I want h3 played.
So White does not chop on e7 but goes back to e5. In the interesting
line Moonbus gives, the 'retreat' variation. You will see Black spends
a tempo going from e8 to f8. This Rxc7 line saves a tempo.
Also in that line here:
Black is given 7...Qg5+ and Nxf5. There is another check.
7...Qc5+ 8.Kh1 and Black can then play 8....Nxf5 because the
Bishop is pinned to the Queen. So we have 9.Be4 QxQ 10.BxQ.
And what is happening now with Black to play?
I don't care what the other site's computer's say.
I'd still play h3 and Bb3 then see what's what. I'd not see g4 coming
With the Bishop back on b3.I'm liking Rd1 with Rd7 ideas.
I don't think it's a position White can lose, that b2 Bishop is very good.
Black has to tread carefully, Not so White he can tidy it up and catch him
when he comes out. That's a plan that often works, defenders hate defending.
Look out for him sacking back the exchange. Play chess