Please turn on javascript in your browser to play chess.
Only Chess Forum

Only Chess Forum

  1. 26 May '15 10:58 / 1 edit
    the following position was reached after Bayonnet attack in Kings Indian, the Idea being that white gives up the exchange for compensation (bishop pair and passed pawn - I think)



    What I didn't really understand was how to proceed and went from a very promising position to one that is almost instantly losing. Can anyone help me understand what I should have done and why and possibly the reasons why I lost because I cannot quite see it myself. For example was it wrong to trade a pair or rooks? What is really the nature of whites compensation and how can it be exploited? Many thanks in advance - regards Robbie.

  2. 26 May '15 19:23
    Hi Robbie,

    This is not an ending! An ending is King and one bit + pawns -v- King one but + pawns.

    Your note here with you to move.


    Saying you don't know what to do.

    In that situation never go nothing active. tidy up your position. His bits are on what looks like
    good squares keeping you at bay. So you pass and let him screw it up.

    White's position is screaming out for luft so h3 would be my choice.

    Read the board looking for things.
    Look at the diagram What is the White Queen doing?

    She is defending both Bishops. That is a Unicorn playing with a Cyclops. An accident
    just waiting to happen. Perhaps after h3 pull the d5 Bishop back to b3.
    That is two passes up your sleeve. Let him worry about you playing Rc7 when you are
    ready. Also with the back rank safe (after h3) Black will be wasting time looking for your
    new threats and this is a 'here be ghosts' position.

    They will hopefully/usually see something that is not there and loosen their position.
    After h3 they will be looking at you playing g4.

    Swapping on g7 here...



    must be wrong, especially when you could have played Qe2 keeping the pot boiling.

    After the double exchange on g7 you are indeed in an ending (King and one bit + pawns
    -v- King one but + pawns. and it looks lost.
  3. 26 May '15 19:42 / 5 edits
    Originally posted by greenpawn34
    Hi Robbie,

    This is not an ending! An ending is King and one bit + pawns -v- King one but + pawns.

    Your note here with you to move.

    [fen]5r2/pp2r2k/4P1pp/3BQn2/1q6/8/PB3PPP/2R3K1[/fen]
    Saying you don't know what to do.

    In that situation never go nothing active. tidy up your position. His bits are on what looks like
    good squares keeping y ...[text shortened]... re indeed in an ending (King and one bit + pawns
    -v- King one but + pawns. and it looks lost.
    Thanks GP, trading rooks was a bad idea, but can you see my problem, i dont know what to do so I sharpen the game when there was no real necessity to do so. It weakened my entire back rank for the rook belongs on d1 I think and h3 g4 is definitely the way to go.

    In this position here, after blacks 27...Qxe7

    g4! is the move and black is in a really tight spot as its difficult for hm to stop the pawns rolling (if Knight h4 then f4), instead I played the total wussy f3?? I mean what the heck is that supposed to be?
  4. Subscriber Ragwort
    Ex Duris Gloria
    26 May '15 21:54
    I actually think this is quite a difficult game to follow if you don't know the theory. To your compensating advantages for the exchange sacrifice I would add that the Black king position is a little airy and the dark squares in particular the a1 to h8 diagonal is weak. This becomes clearer when you see 20. ...Qb6 answered by 21. Bb2 and now have to work out what happens if Black takes either the e6 pawn (one of your supposed advantages) or the b4 pawn which are both en-prise.



    Of course this doesn't happen because in the games you are following the GMs have probably worked out the ramifications of all this beforehand. - I found one GM game that went as far as your 22nd move then varied with 22. ...Rad8. I expect there were others but I don't know where you started playing on your own.

    After 23. ...Nf5 you have to see why the instinctive lash out 24. g4 can't be played immediately - Rxe6 of course.

    Once you reach the position with white to play move 28.



    I really don't see why your g3 should objectively weaker as a pass than GP's h3 if we are claiming your two bishops are more active than black's pieces which are tied down blockading e6 and defending b7, g7 and h8. Of course if your suggestion of 28. g4 was dismissed at move 24 then there is less reason why you would consider it at move 28 even though the black queen no longer prevents it as she did after Qxb4 and you picked up the g pawn to move it one square. I don't know - difficult one.
  5. Subscriber sundown316
    The Mighty Messenger
    26 May '15 23:57
    You missed a win with 25.Rc1? 25.g4 and if the N moves 26 Qg7#
  6. Subscriber BigDoggProblemonline
    The Advanced Mind
    27 May '15 00:45
    Originally posted by sundown316
    You missed a win with 25.Rc1? 25.g4 and if the N moves 26 Qg7#
    25...Qxg4+
  7. Subscriber moonbus
    Uber-Nerd
    27 May '15 19:33
    Hi Robbie. Interesting position. I'm willing to play it out (unrated--no risk) and see where it goes. You take White from move 28. g4 (or whatever). PM me if interested.
  8. 27 May '15 21:48 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by moonbus
    Hi Robbie. Interesting position. I'm willing to play it out (unrated--no risk) and see where it goes. You take White from move 28. g4 (or whatever). PM me if interested.
    I have analysed it with a computer afterwards moonbus and white is winning after g4 from the said position, with a plus of 2.2 It would not be fair to you. Although saying that even with post game computer analysis at my disposal, the prospect of losing still beckons!
  9. 27 May '15 21:50
    Originally posted by Ragwort
    I actually think this is quite a difficult game to follow if you don't know the theory. To your compensating advantages for the exchange sacrifice I would add that the Black king position is a little airy and the dark squares in particular the a1 to h8 diagonal is weak. This becomes clearer when you see 20. ...Qb6 answered by 21. Bb2 and now have to work out ...[text shortened]... did after Qxb4 and you picked up the g pawn to move it one square. I don't know - difficult one.
    Thankyou Ragwort for taking the time, i will think about this and try to get back to you once my blitz fever has passed! It comes upon one from time to time and I need to get rid of it by taking beating after beating after beating!
  10. Subscriber moonbus
    Uber-Nerd
    28 May '15 05:02
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    I have analysed it with a computer afterwards moonbus and white is winning after g4 from the said position, with a plus of 2.2 It would not be fair to you. Although saying that even with post game computer analysis at my disposal, the prospect of losing still beckons!
    Hi Robbie. Thanks for the warning. It looks to me like after 28. g4, either ...Ng7 or ...Nh4, the White k-side pawn mass starts moving, and Black's cramped position is bound to get wrong-footed pretty soon. The Black R cannot leave the 8th so long as there is a mate threat on h8, effectively hobbling the R. The Black Q is wasting away just preventing the e-pawn from advancing. Looks like a convincing win for the B pair.
  11. Subscriber Ragwort
    Ex Duris Gloria
    28 May '15 10:02
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Thankyou Ragwort for taking the time, i will think about this and try to get back to you once my blitz fever has passed! It comes upon one from time to time and I need to get rid of it by taking beating after beating after beating!
    I'm aware of your parallel thread on chess.com regarding this game. To be quite honest it looks as if most of your responders have done as you have, switched on an engine and pronounced that you missed a winning move 28. g4. If that is all you take from this post game analysis then I think you have stopped short. After all it will only apply in the unlikely event you will have this exact position again. Only GP has identified why you lost which was exchanging off twice on g7 on move 29 and 30 which effectively broke the bind you had over black. That is probably because he is the strongest OTB player that you have had access to in this process.

    What I think happened here is (and I've seen it and done it hundreds of times) is that one more or less blindly follows a few super GM games quite deeply believing we have played the best moves. Then there is a variance and we find ourselves in a position we don't really understand. In this case there is a material imbalance so that a basic reference point is gone and we are having to deal with quite complex dynamic factors. Remember the GMs on both sides go for these positions and therefore have faith in what they are doing. In topical lines they will have looked quite deeply before the game even starts, assessing potential endgames, neutralizing all the two, three, four and five movers along the way and, with the help of their computers, try to map a way forward through the labyrinth, having translated the reams of analysis into pithy one line "rules of thumb" to guide their deliberations at the board. You can bet your life they know what to if Black took one of the offered pawns at move 21! So, landed in this mess with a pithy one line rule of thumb and little back up analysis we thrash about and take the first opportunity to simplify out of it even if the endgame we enter is lost. But at least our head stops hurting right?

    If you intend to play this or similar lines you have to look at whether you know in general what you need to win a bishop and pawn ending against a rook and pawn and resist the temptation to go into endings that don't deliver that up front. You need to know how to press for a clear advantage in dynamic positions especially those where you have a bind, even if that means no more than providing the opportunity for your opponent to go wrong. Understand what defensive strategies your opponent might be putting up - in this case offering to exchange off the pieces that are causing him pain and avoid complying with them. It's a lot of work but chess is a difficult game.
  12. 28 May '15 17:16
    Originally posted by Ragwort
    I'm aware of your parallel thread on chess.com regarding this game. To be quite honest it looks as if most of your responders have done as you have, switched on an engine and pronounced that you missed a winning move 28. g4. If that is all you take from this post game analysis then I think you have stopped short. After all it will only apply in the unlikely ...[text shortened]... ausing him pain and avoid complying with them. It's a lot of work but chess is a difficult game.
    You know my play has inspired you to take up this line! look how good it is for white, black is practically busted after move 22!

    But to the text, I must say old chap with some sincerity that l i did not simply switch on an engine. What I did was try to understand why I had lost without the help of anyone or anything. ONLY when i could not find the answer did I ask on here and on chess.com because I have no one else to ask as I don’t know any other chess players near where I live.

    I was not actually that moved by the move 28.g4 as winning although I could understand why in retrospect. I was interested in the winning plan and for this i received answers that i knew in a kind of hazy fashion from looking at master games. White expands on the Kingside by pushing his pawns. I knew this from a Shirov game in particular that I had studied in some depth prior to playing this game. Where I failed was in not working out the details. Nor was I blindly following a master game. I had studied several games from the excellent John Cox chessbase CD, with annotations. Not only that I understood what white was trying to achieve and why. I even knew what I had to do but somehow I lacked the nerve to prosecute the Kingside pawn storm, even though I understood it forms part of whites compensation.

    I will take the rest of your text on board for its very true, i do have a tendency to simplify a position when doing so only eases my opponents burden. Many thanks for taking the time.
  13. Subscriber moonbus
    Uber-Nerd
    28 May '15 23:21
    Sorry, an error occurred. Please report this problem.