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  1. 15 Sep '08 10:00
    Hi I was looking at this game 5275684. Nallapuh vs Chizza. White won on time with just a bare king. I was under the impression a bare king vs no time is a draw because white can't force mate. Even a king and bishop vs no time is a draw. If you can't force mate, it's a draw. I think this is a rule. I know this is in practice at FICS (free internet chess server) and more than likely it is at ICC. I once had king and bishop and "won" on time at FICS. It was a draw. I could have even mated if black moved his king to the corner and smothered it. I couldn't force mate though. That was the argument I got from the administrators there. How is this a loss here???
  2. 15 Sep '08 10:05
  3. Standard member Dragon Fire
    Lord of all beasts
    15 Sep '08 10:29 / 3 edits
    I agree, the game is a draw when a win cannot be had by any sequence of legal moves.

    A bare B can win



    Whites last move Ba6b7# following blacks move Nc6b8??.
  4. 15 Sep '08 10:42
    Yes but a bare bishop cannot FORCE mate. The black pieces have to cooperate.
  5. 15 Sep '08 10:54
    Originally posted by paulbuchmanfromfics
    Yes but a bare bishop cannot FORCE mate. The black pieces have to cooperate.
    That, however, is not the rule. This is (5.2b from the FIDE rules):

    The game is drawn when a position has arisen in which neither player can checkmate the opponent`s king with any series of legal moves. The game is said to end in a `dead position`. This immediately ends the game, provided that the move producing the position was legal.

    Note: any series of legal moves. If you can mate, even if you can only helpmate, it's not an automatic draw. If you cannot mate at all, e.g. with only a bishop against a bare king, it's a draw; but the addition of the knight means that it's not draw under that clause.

    In the game in question, though, the flag had fallen. That's another rule. That's rule 6.10, which ends:
    ...However, the game is drawn, if the position is such that the opponent cannot checkmate the player`s king by any possible series of legal moves, even with the most unskilled counterplay.

    In other words, yes, game 5275684 should have been a draw. Black ran out of time, but white could not have mated black under any circumstances, not even with black's help.

    Richard
  6. 15 Sep '08 11:05
    The only reason I thought you have to be able to FORCE mate is because that was what an admin at FICS told me. I never read the official rules. Thanks for clearing it all up. I have written the site about this, so that it won't happen in the future.
  7. Standard member Dragon Fire
    Lord of all beasts
    15 Sep '08 11:27 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by paulbuchmanfromfics
    Yes but a bare bishop cannot FORCE mate. The black pieces have to cooperate.
    Agreed, but forcing a win is not the rule.

    A win can be claimed on time if a mate is possible with any series of legal moves even if those moves are totally inept!


    Edit: I see the actual rules have already been pointed out.
  8. 15 Sep '08 11:57
    The site has written me back. Black lost because he didn't "claim the draw". I think he shouldn't have to. They would probably have to change all the software to make this work. Any thoughts?
  9. 15 Sep '08 12:31
    Originally posted by paulbuchmanfromfics
    The site has written me back. Black lost because he didn't "claim the draw". I think he shouldn't have to. They would probably have to change all the software to make this work. Any thoughts?
    I agree, the draw should have been claimed.

    That's the way in OTB game too. A game is not drawn until it is discovered and claimed.
  10. 15 Sep '08 12:45
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    I agree, the draw should have been claimed.

    That's the way in OTB game too. A game is not drawn until it is discovered and claimed.
    I agree with you that the draw should have been claimed by black, but on redhotpawn, how would they have done that? Is there a way that I don't yet know? Sure black could offer a draw seeing that they were running out of time, but white could ignore the offer and play on surely?
  11. 15 Sep '08 12:46
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    I agree, the draw should have been claimed.

    That's the way in OTB game too. A game is not drawn until it is discovered and claimed.
    No, that's not true. In some cases - and this is one of them - the draw is automatic, and need not be claimed. Not just my opinion; it's in the FIDE rules. 5.2a and b, and 6.10 (and a couple of others which aren't quite relevant here), state that certain positions are a draw, while 5.2d and e state that some other situations may be drawn. In the latter case, a claim by either player is necessary (and in 5.2c, agreement between the two); in the former, no claim is needed. Stalemate and lack of mating material simply are draws, immediately after the legal move that produced them.
    (In the case of the game in this thread, the clock timeout still needs to be claimed, or observed by an arbiter; but that done, the fact that the result is a draw, not a loss, is automatic.)

    Richard
  12. 15 Sep '08 13:03
    Richard (Shallow Blue), I haven't disagreed with you once. I wrote the site a second time. I quoted your FIDE rules and am waiting on a reply. You can write them too if you want.
  13. 15 Sep '08 13:13
    Originally posted by Shallow Blue
    No, that's not true. In some cases - and this is one of them - the draw is automatic, and need not be claimed. Not just my opinion; it's in the FIDE rules. 5.2a and b, and 6.10 (and a couple of others which aren't quite relevant here), state that certain positions [b]are a draw, while 5.2d and e state that some other situations may be drawn. ...[text shortened]... ter; but that done, the fact that the result is a draw, not a loss, is automatic.)

    Richard[/b]
    Yes, but the draw situation must be discovered first.

    I've seen games OTB shuffling a few pieces, not sufficient for a mate by either part, without neither of the players claiming a draw (in the lower series). It is not automaticly a draw, it must be discovered first, only then it is draw by rules.

    If the arbitrer were around to see it, then it is discovered by him, and it's draw. But someone has to recognize the draw before it is a draw.
  14. 15 Sep '08 19:56
    Sorry. I still think you shouldn't have to claim it. I've seen lower rated players make illegal moves too. You can't do that here. Why should you be able to win illegally?
  15. 15 Sep '08 20:26
    The rules are known up front. We've all been on the bad side of move timeout. It's enforced equally on both sides. In football if you are down 1 point on the 1 yard line with have 5 seconds left on the clock, and the entire defense is standing near the sideline, you still lose if you don't score before the clock finishes. The clock is just as much a part of the game as anything else.