Only Chess
09 Dec 06
10 Dec 06
2 edits
Originally posted by omulcusobolaniIn the first diagram after Rxg8 there is no way black can queen a pawn. If the Bishop is protected by the pawn, then the board is upside down, all chess diagrams are oriented so that blacks side is at the top.
In the first diagram black is winning, in the second white, no matter who's move it is.
And you must always state who's move it is, if it isn't stated it is assumed it is whites move.
10 Dec 06
Originally posted by JusuhIt does make sense (at least more than your idea). It is a good approximation of what the pieces are worth, usable by a beginner who has no idea. Secondly, it answers the question of the person stated in this topic, whereas you just spread mis-information.
neither does the first one
10 Dec 06
Originally posted by JusuhOf course you can. Still, I don't see the point of giving those values. If you want to say it depends on the position, say it, don't give some random crap to a new player. And, as you replied to my post, the values I gave are much better established than the ones you gave. Do you even have a source for those values? Mention a book that states those values maybe? The point-system was introduced to give players and idea of how much the pieces are worth, we know they do not describe a piece's worth in any position. I don't see why you answered to my post with those values.
mis-information? how the hell it does that? I can show you thousands of positions where a queen has "a value" of "2 points".
- Joined
- 26 May 02
- Moves
- 72546
10 Dec 06
Originally posted by GolubYes, those are the standard values, which work for most positions.
I think the regular points given are something like this:
1=Pawn
3=Knight
3/3.5=Bishop
5=Rook
9/10=Queen
For instance it's often a good idea to exchange a queen (worth 9 points) for two rooks (10 points).
If you're thinking of exchanging a rook (5 points) for a knight (3 points) make sure you also get a couple of pawns (2 points) for it. If you only get a knight plus one pawn, that's not usually enough.
However if you exchange a rook for bishop (3.5 points) and pawn, then that's usually okay. If you manage to get a bishop and 2 pawns for the rook, then that's nearly always a good trade.
Another situation which occurs frequently is when you have to decide whether to give up 2 pieces in order to win a rook. Again doing a simple value count is very useful. It's immediately obvious that trading 2 bishops (7 points) for a rook (5 points) is a bad idea. 2 knights (6 points) for a rook is far more likely to work, but you would still want to pick up an additional pawn.
10 Dec 06
Originally posted by David Tebbwell here we see the problem with point-count. Beginners who have been taught to use the point-count system will for sure miss great number of opportunities. Like; How many times have you seen a rook (5 points) to be sacrificed for a knight (3 points) to gain an lasting initiative? Knight (3p) for a pawn (1p) to speed up your attack? Bishop (3.5p [lol]) for a knight (3p) to get rid of opponents well positioned knight? Two pawns for a pawn to mess up your opponents pawn structure? etc etc etc.
Yes, those are the standard values, which work for most positions.
For instance it's often a good idea to exchange a queen (worth 9 points) for two rooks (10 points).
If you're thinking of exchanging a rook (5 points) for a knight (3 points) make sure you also get a couple of pawns (2 points) for it. If you only get a knight plus one pawn, that's n ...[text shortened]... a rook is far more likely to work, but you would still want to pick up an additional pawn.
Moreover, they will learn the very bad and dangerous habit of playing with the pieces, NOT WITH POSITION. The sad truth is, only the position on the board matters. Its no good for you to be, say, 15 "points" up in material when you are going get mated.
- Joined
- 26 May 02
- Moves
- 72546
10 Dec 06
Originally posted by JusuhYes, but knowing the value of pieces is very important for any player. Of course, material is just one factor in chess. I agree that things like King safety or having an attack are often more important than anything else in a specific position.
well here we see the problem with point-count. Beginners who have been taught to use the point-count system will for sure miss great number of opportunities. Like; How many times have you seen a rook (5 points) to be sacrificed for a knight (3 points) to gain an lasting initiative? Knight (3p) for a pawn (1p) to speed up your attack? Bishop (3.5p [lol]) for a ...[text shortened]... ters. Its no good for you to be, say, 15 "points" up in material when you are going get mated.
I disagree with your argument that counting the pieces is a "very bad and dangerous habit". Unless there is an obvious mating attack on the board, the first thing anyone should do in order to assess the position is to count the material. Then you look at positional factors such as pawn structure, control of the centre and the weakness of key squares. For instance, if one player have an extra pawn, does his opponent have compensation for it? Maybe the player who is down on material has more active pieces or a far advanced passed pawn that is likely to queen. The assessment can be very tricky even for a grandmaster. But it always involves weighing positional factors against material ones. And in order to be able to accurately assess the material you have to count the points of the pieces.
But what does a beginner need to know? IMO they should first be told a few basic things to get them started, such as how the pieces move, the rules of castling, en passant, etc. Then they should be advised to develop the pieces sensibly, play a pawn to the centre, bring out the knights and bishops, castle. Then put rooks on useful squares, and keep the queen back for as long as possible. They should always check to see whether their opponents last move is threatening anything. They should rarely give up material. Once a player has advanced to the point that they can ignore material values and consider sacrificing a piece for a mating attack, then I would argue that they are no longer a beginner.
10 Dec 06
who cares what a piece is worth we all know what the rooks and knights and bishops are worth. it depends on the position usually if your opponent has a lot of pawns with linked rooks vs a queen the queen will lose. its the position that matters when you are talking about the queen. if you lose it early duh your probably going to lose but it just depends on the position.
10 Dec 06
1 edit
Well thats true, but when it comes to deciding what to move, I think it would be ill-advised to use such a point count system, because it can prevent a beginner to come up with new ideas (like exchange sacs). Of course, it is possible that a beginner would miss those sacrifices anyway.
EDIT: response to Tebb
23 Mar 09
Originally posted by David Tebbfound myself playing Black in a very drawish Caro-Kann middlegame slugfest getting nowhere.
Yes, those are the standard values, which work for most positions.
For instance it's often a good idea to exchange a queen (worth 9 points) for two rooks (10 points).
If you're thinking of exchanging a rook (5 points) for a knight (3 points) make sure you also get a couple of pawns (2 points) for it. If you only get a knight plus one pawn, that's n ...[text shortened]... a rook is far more likely to work, but you would still want to pick up an additional pawn.
Very tough opponent, always finding perfect, attacking moves.
Then I looked at my opponent's games, and saw a pattern of wins with diagonal strikes involving bishop and Queen batteries.
Maneuvered into 2 exchanges:
Exchanged knight for the remaining bishop.
Then offered my 2 rooks for my opponent's queen, and the exchange was made.
And that yielded a favorable endgame, my "take-me" pawns tempting -- and my queen herding -- White's rooks into opposite sides of the board. Into a Q vs 2 R endgame -- which I then won.
Only by swapping 2 rooks for a Queen.
23 Mar 09
I feel a little silly posting to an old thread that's just been bumped, but what the hey.
I agree with others that it depends on the position and maybe a few other factors. But if you put a gun to my head and demand an average value for the queen, I'd say it's a 9 on the Reinfeld scale and a 9.75 on the Kaufman scale. Here's the Kaufman article:
http://danheisman.home.comcast.net/~danheisman/Articles/evaluation_of_material_imbalance.htm