Originally posted by Mephisto2I think just 4. ... Bc5 is = after that though. The knights will exchange, after which any d4 push from white will be harder to realise and less effective than in, say, the Giucco Piano, with which a comparison is obvious. Surely Spanish players should be more ambitious than allowing an limp Italian!
Many Bird players go astray when you don't take on d4 but play 4.Bc4 instead, and they think they can afford 4. ... b5 to push your bishop away (instead of taking on f3). Follows 5.Bxf7+ Kxf7 6.Nxd4 exd4? 7.Qh5+ and you will win the rook on a8.
Btw - you said "Many" Bird players go astray with this. Many!? How many are there?? I don't think I've ever faced it once !
Originally posted by TommyCSpanish players are (should be) familiar with positional play. After 4.Bc4 Nxf3+ 5.Qf3 Nf6 6.Nc3 d6 7.d3 white is doing fine.
I think just 4. ... Bc5 is = after that though. The knights will exchange, after which any d4 push from white will be harder to realise and less effective than in, say, the Giucco Piano, with which a comparison is obvious. Surely Spanish players should be more ambitious than allowing an limp Italian!
Btw - you said "Many" Bird players go astray with this. Many!? How many are there?? I don't think I've ever faced it once !
In online sites, you will find that Bird's defense is played quite often, probably used as surprise weapon.
Originally posted by Mephisto2I've played a lot on correspondence sites as well as on FICS, ICC and playchess.com and really can't recall facing it once... You've encountered it frequently though Mephisto2?
Spanish players are (should be) familiar with positional play. After 4.Bc4 Nxf3+ 5.Qf3 Nf6 6.Nc3 d6 7.d3 white is doing fine.
In online sites, you will find that Bird's defense is played quite often, probably used as surprise weapon.
Btw I think 4. ... Bc5 is better than 4. ... Nxf3+ in your line as I said before. Also in your line 5. ... Qf6 is probably a bit better than 5. ... Nf6. I think white is dead equal after in these kinds of positions though - yet surely the Spanish is more ambitious than this - was my point.
Originally posted by TommyCNo, I don't play on these sites, but people who I coach(ed) do and that is their experience.
I've played a lot on correspondence sites as well as on FICS, ICC and playchess.com and really can't recall facing it once... You've encountered it frequently though Mephisto2?
Btw I think 4. ... Bc5 is better than 4. ... Nxf3+ in your line as I said before. Also in your line 5. ... Qf6 is probably a bit better than 5. ... Nf6. I think white is dead equal ...[text shortened]... inds of positions though - yet surely the Spanish is more ambitious than this - was my point.
Also, I am not advocating 4.Bc4 as being better than 4.Nxd4. I was merely showing the little trap. That said, though, I don't see what is so dead equal after 4. ... Bc5 5.Nxd4 Bxd4 6.c3 Bb6 7.d4.
And concerning 5. ... Qf6 instead of 5. ... Nf6, there too, white can play 6.Qg3 and go into a nice positional variation à la Gioco Piano.
Originally posted by Mephisto2Most of the games given in Rotariu & Cimmino's book on this variation are drawn or = after that line, eg after 7. ... Qe7 or 7. ... Qf6, some of them very quick. My view is that the exchange of f3 for c6 knight eases the problems usually associated with d4 in the Giucco Piano to black's advantage (or rather equality.)
No, I don't play on these sites, but people who I coach(ed) do and that is their experience.
Also, I am not advocating 4.Bc4 as being better than 4.Nxd4. I was merely showing the little trap. That said, though, I don't see what is so dead equal after 4. ... Bc5 5.Nxd4 Bxd4 6.c3 Bb6 7.d4.
And concerning 5. ... Qf6 instead of 5. ... Nf6, there too, white can play 6.Qg3 and go into a nice positional variation à la Gioco Piano.
Anywya, this is completely off-topic. As you are a coach, then, what would you advise the original poster of this thread to play against the Spanish instead of Bird's?
Originally posted by TommyCI would recommend a variation with less theory than the mainlines. Why not Modern Steinitz (3. ... a6 and 4. ... d6)?
Most of the games given in Rotariu & Cimmino's book on this variation are drawn or = after that line, eg after 7. ... Qe7 or 7. ... Qf6, some of them very quick. My view is that the exchange of f3 for c6 knight eases the problems usually associated with d4 in the Giucco Piano to black's advantage (or rather equality.)
Anywya, this is completely off-topic. ...[text shortened]... you advise the original poster of this thread to play against the Spanish instead of Bird's?
I exclusively play e5, and what I recommend is to develop a repertoire around the Zaitsev or Marshall attack. Play the Marshall attack if they allow it, and if not fall back into the Zaitsev like lines.
The Marshall attack really causes a lot of problems for white I'm finding. White really has to play very accurately all the way to the bitter end if he wants to survive. You get tons of resources around the weak light square complex you create etc. And the resources just continue all the way through (and they can be sneaky too, sometimes seemingly coming from nowhere 😉
I won't try to elaborate on the way to play these lines (and I still have much to learn myself obviously), you will just need to play lots of games. But if you want to be an e5 player this is how I suggest to develop your repertoire. It will pay off for you...
I have currently no less than 2 Marshall attack games (in progress so no advice please) which I think I might win because white was the slightest bit careless...
Game 2444972
Game 2420254
Ruy Lopez Open.
eg Game 2277247
Only drawn because I gave away my winning pawn (as I thought he had checked me)
Originally posted by SpacetimeAlso a great option for black
I exclusively play e5, and what I recommend is to develop a repertoire around the Zaitsev or Marshall attack. Play the Marshall attack if they allow it, and if not fall back into the Zaitsev like lines.
The Marshall attack really causes a lot of problems for white I'm finding. White really has to play very accurately all the way to the bitter end if h ...[text shortened]... in because white was the slightest bit careless...
Game 2444972
Game 2420254
Originally posted by cmsMaster6. ... 0-0? 7. Bxc6 followed by Nxe5 and black looks retarded.
That's how almost every single opening you play is. Some more extreme than others, but the Ruy is about as theoretical as the Sicilian (in general). I don't play 1..e5 so it's not like I could help you if I wanted to. But The closed defense seems to be the most respected.
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 (I think...my line may be sketchy here) ...[text shortened]... tually use the Ruy (from either side) and so me giving anybody advice on it is a bit hard.