Please turn on javascript in your browser to play chess.
Only Chess Forum

Only Chess Forum

  1. Subscriber 64squaresofpain On Vacation
    The drunk knight
    13 Feb '17 18:21


    Which side would you rather play?

    I should put it to the "site ideas" section to have a function on this forum to make voting polls,
    so you can simply select an answer and then we can see clear results... a debate for another day, perhaps.

    Anyway, I have been playing some good games vs. user @Shaun12
    and can say I have learnt something from each game.

    As it stands I am minus 1 with 1 win, 2 draws and 2 losses.
    I've already shown one of the losses, so today of course I'm showing the win 🙂

    I play Black.... so you can probably guess which side I prefer.



    All thoughts, comments and criticisms welcome 🙂
  2. 13 Feb '17 21:21
    Looks like you want to know how many people play the London System.
  3. Standard member Nowakowski
    10. O-O
    13 Feb '17 22:19 / 2 edits
    It looks ugly to me. I'd take black against it - and I'd be using a KID style of kingside attack. Just my 2 cents. That locked up white squared bishop felt awful the entire time. I'm not familiar with the london, but if leaving Bf1, and hand castling is "theory" I want no part of it.
    EDIT: After seeing.your annotations I see Be2 and O-O is normal. I still feel like a g4 push is strong. I also like c5 straight away with Nc6 instead in that game. Enjoyed the game though, thanks for sharing.


    -GIN
  4. 13 Feb '17 23:01
    From the diagram I think I would play white, but not the London. I would try to play c4 Nc3 and e4.
  5. Subscriber 64squaresofpain On Vacation
    The drunk knight
    14 Feb '17 00:26
    Originally posted by Nowakowski
    It looks ugly to me. I'd take black against it - and I'd be using a KID style of kingside attack. Just my 2 cents. That locked up white squared bishop felt awful the entire time. I'm not familiar with the london, but if leaving Bf1, and hand castling is "theory" I want no part of it.
    EDIT: After seeing.your annotations I see Be2 and O-O is normal. I ...[text shortened]... ight away with Nc6 instead in that game. Enjoyed the game though, thanks for sharing.


    -GIN
    I'm not saying that my game was a good example in any case!
    Was just there more to confirm my opinion on the matter 🙂

    Grandmaster's have had this debate also, here's possibly the oldest example from way back in 1922,
    which, as I'm sure someone on here can confirm, was the birthplace of the London system.

    Alexander Alekhine vs Max Euwe (1922 London tournament)



    And just to be fair, here's an example of a King's Indian GM win

    Paul Keres vs Bobby Fischer (1959 Bled, candidates tournament)

  6. Standard member Nowakowski
    10. O-O
    14 Feb '17 05:01 / 1 edit
    I admire your diligence in showing both sides... but neither appears to me to have been along deep lines. I see transposition to other more prominent systems in each game. I suppose it can be called a london...but if it ends up in a QGD, or a colle system...well it seems a badly bastradized usage of the term "London system"

    Perhaps that is just my personal perception due in no small part to vastly more experience with English and QGD games.

    -GIN
  7. Subscriber venda
    Dave
    14 Feb '17 10:38
    You've been watching me Zak,(aka 64 squares)although I doubt you've learned anything!!.
    I play both the London system as white and the K.i.d as black regularly.
    I haven't played all the way through your games yet, but one observation is that when I first saw the London system on U tube white's tactic was to wait for black to castle and then attack the King.The white player never castled in the game.
    Also,what you have to be careful when playing tis way of is the black e pawn advancing
  8. Subscriber 64squaresofpain On Vacation
    The drunk knight
    14 Feb '17 13:04
    Originally posted by Nowakowski
    I admire your diligence in showing both sides... but neither appears to me to have been along deep lines. I see transposition to other more prominent systems in each game.

    -GIN
    What transpositions do you see?
    I notice both games follow the same line up to the early c5 move you previously mentioned,
    then similar after that, but I actually took both games from the RHP GM archive,
    where all the games listed have their openings classed as "King's Indian London System"

    copy-paste this link and you'll see there's quite a list:
    https://www.redhotpawn.com/chess/grandmaster-games/index.php?openingid=227

    I don't have time to go through many more of these, but I bet they all follow a similar theme.

    I thought you'd comment on this Dave 🙂
    If they were both on the board together, as per diagram, which side would you prefer based on experience?
    King's Indian suits my style, whereas the London just doesn't appeal for some reason... perhaps I should try it.
  9. Standard member Nowakowski
    10. O-O
    14 Feb '17 14:43
    Originally posted by 64squaresofpain
    What transpositions do you see?
    I notice both games follow the same line up to the early c5 move you previously mentioned,
    then similar after that, but I actually took both games from the RHP GM archive,
    where all the games listed have their openings classed as "King's Indian London System"

    copy-paste this link and you'll see there's quite a li ...[text shortened]... its my style, whereas the London just doesn't appeal for some reason... perhaps I should try it.
    Look at Eco code D13 the Slav exchange variation of the QGD. The theory in those lines is waaaaaay deep. I would bet deeper than this London thingamajig.

    -GIN
  10. Subscriber Paul Leggett
    Chess Librarian
    14 Feb '17 23:51 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by 64squaresofpain
    What transpositions do you see?
    I notice both games follow the same line up to the early c5 move you previously mentioned,
    then similar after that, but I actually took both games from the RHP GM archive,
    where all the games listed have their openings classed as "King's Indian London System"

    copy-paste this link and you'll see there's quite a li ...[text shortened]... its my style, whereas the London just doesn't appeal for some reason... perhaps I should try it.
    As a simplistic rule of thumb, c3 is a London and c4 is a Bf4 system against whatever. Alekhine and Keres played London System games, but the OP's original game only started as a potential London but left that field for greener pastures when White opted for c4 instead of c3.

    To answer the OP's original question, I used to always prefer the black side, but I have grown to appreciate the white side, so I'd be OK either way.
  11. Standard member Nowakowski
    10. O-O
    15 Feb '17 00:52
    Originally posted by Paul Leggett
    As a simplistic rule of thumb, c3 is a London and c4 is a Bf4 system against whatever. Alekhine and Keres played London System games, but the OP's original game only started as a potential London but left that field for greener pastures when White opted for c4 instead of c3.

    To answer the OP's original question, I used to always prefer the black side, but I have grown to appreciate the white side, so I'd be OK either way.
    This makes more sense. Is c3 and e3 a "colle" system, or just in pawn structure?
    Is f3 London theory?

    -GIN
  12. Subscriber 64squaresofpain On Vacation
    The drunk knight
    15 Feb '17 03:34
    Originally posted by Paul Leggett
    As a simplistic rule of thumb, c3 is a London and c4 is a Bf4 system against whatever. Alekhine and Keres played London System games, but the OP's original game only started as a potential London but left that field for greener pastures when White opted for c4 instead of c3.
    Are you saying c4 is never played in a London system?

    I'm pretty sure both c3 and c4 are playable, I noticed Spassky played c4 in a game:
    https://www.chess.com/forum/view/chess-openings/c3-vs-c4-in-london-system
    See the game vs Enver Bukic

    And no, typically the Knight is on f3 in the London (as per diagram) there's no pawn to f3.

    Next few White games I get I will play 1.d4 and will try the London, just to see what happens 🙂
  13. Subscriber Paul Leggett
    Chess Librarian
    15 Feb '17 15:02
    Originally posted by 64squaresofpain
    Are you saying c4 is never played in a London system?

    I'm pretty sure both c3 and c4 are playable, I noticed Spassky played c4 in a game:
    https://www.chess.com/forum/view/chess-openings/c3-vs-c4-in-london-system
    See the game vs Enver Bukic

    And no, typically the Knight is on f3 in the London (as per diagram) there's no pawn to f3.

    Next few White games I get I will play 1.d4 and will try the London, just to see what happens 🙂
    If White plays c4 in one move, and black has played ...d5, it is some form of Queen's Gambit, not a London System. The are both certainly playable, of course.

    The London is essentially a Semi-Slav Reversed, with White using the tempo to place his bishop on f4 without having to give up d4 the way black has to give up d5 in the Slav or Semi-Slav.

    I have a copy of Lakdawala's latest book "First Steps: The Colle and London Systems" where he attempts to pass off positions with d4, c4, e3, and Bf4 as a Colle, when in fact it is a mainstream Queen's Gambit Declined from a Colle move order.

    I am not a big fan of his sloppy and misleading nomenclature, especially when he makes the inaccuracy right in the title of the book. It's still a good book with nice example games, but the title is very misleading. It's really more of a 1. d4 repertoire book using a combination of Colle, London, QGD and other systems to complete the whole. It should have been labeled and sold as such.
  14. Subscriber venda
    Dave
    15 Feb '17 19:22
    I thought you'd comment on this Dave
    If they were both on the board together, as per diagram, which side would you prefer based on experience?
    King's Indian suits my style, whereas the London just doesn't appeal for some reason... perhaps I should try it.

    I'm not a good enough chess guru to pick one system over the other.
    I've always veered away from playing E4 as white simply because there's so much theory on it that I prefer to try something different.
    I tried the reti for a while but wasn't really comfortable with it so now with white I tend to go with a queens pawn game or the London system the theory been the more I play that way the less errors I'll make.Sometimes I'll go for something weird like the global opening, usually after a good slug of wine!!
    With black I like the French against E4 or the Kings indian against D4 simply because I've played them a lot, although recentenly I've played a few nimzo indians
  15. Subscriber 64squaresofpain On Vacation
    The drunk knight
    16 Feb '17 00:28
    Originally posted by venda
    Sometimes I'll go for something weird like the global opening, usually after a good slug of wine!!
    I had never heard of "The Global Opening" before, so had to google it......

    1.h3 e5 2.a3


    I'm now GLAD that I had never heard of it before! 😀