Mate with two knights

This position comes from the game Barcza - Rethy, Budapest 1953

White to move

I think the first move is Kd7

It is should be possible in this position. Blacks extra pawn can be used either to gain the tempo to force the king into a corner to be mated. Or it could even assist in the mate, by chasing the black king in front of it and then mating around it with the knights.

Originally posted by Wulebgr
This position comes from the game Barcza - Rethy, Budapest 1953

White to move
[fen]1k6/8/2K5/2N5/8/2p5/2N5/8 w - - 0 127[/fen]

First things first. I think the mate needs to be on h8 so if I am correct that is the corner to which the K must be forced before the N on c3 moves when it has 3 moves to deliver mate.

On a8 I don't think mate can be delivered as the Q will either give check or be able to capture the checking N (on c7).

So Ne6 - c7 - b4 but I have previously failed with this difficult mate so I might be going up the wrong path.

Originally posted by Wulebgr
This position comes from the game Barcza - Rethy, Budapest 1953

White to move
[fen]1k6/8/2K5/2N5/8/2p5/2N5/8 w - - 0 127[/fen]

1.Kd7 Ka7! 2.Kc7 Ka8 Now white need to get their knight to d6 and the king to b6. How to do that? 3.Kb6! Kb8 4.Nb7 Kc8! 5.Kc6 Kb8 6.Nd6! Ka7 7.Kb5 Kb8! [7...Ka8 8.Kb6 Kb8 9.Nb4 c2 10.Nc6+ and 11.Nb5 and 12.Nc7#] 8.Kb6 Ka8 Okay, task accomplished. 9.Kc7! Ka7 10.Nb4 c2 11.Nc8+ Ka8 12.Nc6 and 13.Nb6#

Originally posted by ilywrin
1.Kd7 Ka7! 2.Kc7 Ka8 Now white need to get their knight to d6 and the king to b6. How to do that? 3.Kb6! Kb8 4.Nb7 Kc8! 5.Kc6 Kb8 6.Nd6! Ka7 7.Kb5 Kb8! [7...Ka8 8.Kb6 Kb8 9.Nb4 c2 10.Nc6+ and 11.Nb5 and 12.Nc7#] 8.Kb6 Ka8 Okay, task accomplished. 9.Kc7! Ka7 10.Nb4 c2 11.Nc8+ Ka8 12.Nc6 and 13.Nb6#

I always understood that in order to mate with 2 knights you required your opponent was required to fall on their own sword and help you to mate them

Originally posted by Mctayto
I always understood that in order to mate with 2 knights you required your opponent was required to fall on their own sword and help you to mate them

True, but this is specifically two knights versus pawn, where the pawn helps against stalemate at a key moment.

Originally posted by Mctayto
I always understood that in order to mate with 2 knights you required your opponent was required to fall on their own sword and help you to mate them

If the pawn wasn't there, the king would be stalemated before being checkmated.

D

Originally posted by Dragon Fire
First things first. I think the mate needs to be on h8 so if I am correct that is the corner to which the K must be forced before the N on c3 moves when it has 3 moves to deliver mate.

On a8 I don't think mate can be delivered as the Q will either give check or be able to capture the checking N (on c7).

So Ne6 - c7 - b4 but I have previously failed with this difficult mate so I might be going up the wrong path.

I'm thick! So after a little research using Averbakhs "Knight Endings" here is a solution.

1. Kb6 .. Kb8;
2. Nb7 .. Kc8;
3. Kc6 .. Kb8;
4. Nd6 .. Ka7;
5. Kb5 .. Kb8;
6. Kb6 .. Ka8;
7. Nc8 .. Kb8;
8. Ne7 .. Ka8;
9. Kc7 .. Ka7;
10. Nb4 .. c2;
11. Nec6+ .. Ka8;
12. Nd5 .. c1=Q;
13. Nb6# 1-0

So who now says books are useless?

Originally posted by Dragon Fire
I'm thick! So after a little research using Averbakhs "Knight Endings" here is a solution.

1. Kb6 .. Kb8;
2. Nb7 .. Kc8;
3. Kc6 .. Kb8;
4. Nd6 .. Ka7;
5. Kb5 .. Kb8;
6. Kb6 .. Ka8;
7. Nc8 .. Kb8;
8. Ne7 .. Ka8;
9. Kc7 .. Ka7;
10. Nb4 .. c2;
11. Nec6+ .. Ka8;
12. Nd5 .. c1=Q;
13. Nb6# 1-0

So who now says books are useless?

I used an engine and a database to find this one. 😉

But, then, I never said that books were useless. Indeed, I went looking for this game in the first place because of some books: Vukovic, The Art of Attackin Chess and Tisdall, Improve Your Chess Now.


In the game, black played 117...Kb7?? moving into a forced mate in 23. 117...Kd8 draws.

Black to move (after 117. Kd6)

Mate with king and two knights against king+pawn, how many people are actually good enough to do that in under 50 moves, if at all?

Originally posted by Sam The Sham
Mate with king and two knights against king+pawn, how many people are actually good enough to do that in under 50 moves, if at all?

Whether the position is winning or not depends on where the pawn is blockaded. It's different for each file (although symmetrical a-d vs. e-h files). Assuming that the pawn is blockaded far enough back. I'd say converting the win is roughly as difficult as mating with K+B+N v. K. I wonder what percentage of players are able to do this? As a wild guess I'd say ~10% of regular players.

Originally posted by Sam The Sham
Mate with king and two knights against king+pawn, how many people are actually good enough to do that in under 50 moves, if at all?

Gedeon Barcza for one.

Barcza,G - Rethy,P [A25]
HUN-ch 09th Budapest, 1953
[Wulebgr]
1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3 Nc6 4.Bg2 Bc5 5.e3 0–0 6.Nge2 Re8 7.0–0 Bf8 8.d4 d6 9.d5 Ne7 10.e4 a5 11.Bg5 Ng6 12.a3 h6 13.Be3 b6 14.b4 Bd7 15.f3 Qc8 16.Qd3 Bh3 17.Rfb1 Bxg2 18.Kxg2 axb4 19.axb4 Qb7 20.Nb5 Reb8 21.Nec3 Ne8 22.Qd1 Rxa1 23.Rxa1 Ra8 24.Ra4 Rxa4 25.Qxa4 Ne7 26.Qa7 Qc8 27.c5 bxc5 28.bxc5 dxc5 29.Bxc5 Ng6 30.Bxf8 Nxf8 31.Qc5 Qd7 32.Na7 Ng6 33.Qc6 Qd8 34.Ncb5 Ne7 35.Qc3 f6 36.Qc4 Kf8 37.Qc5 Kf7 38.Qc4 Kf8 39.Qc5 Kf7 40.h4 h5 41.Qc4 Kf8 42.Qc5 Kf7 43.Nc3 Qd7 44.Qb4 g5 45.hxg5 fxg5 46.Nd1 g4 47.Nf2 gxf3+ 48.Kxf3 Nf6 49.Qc4 Kg7 50.Qc1 Nexd5 51.Nc6 Nxe4 52.Kxe4 Nf6+ 53.Kf3 Qf5+ 54.Kg2 h4 55.gxh4 Ne4 56.Qe3 Qg6+ 57.Kf1 Ng3+ 58.Ke1 Qb1+ 59.Nd1 Qe4 60.Qxe4 Nxe4 61.Ke2 Kh6 62.Kf3 Nf6 63.Ne3 Kh5 64.Ng2 Nd7 65.Ke4 Nf8 66.Nxe5 c5 67.Kf4 c4 68.Kg3 c3 69.Nf4+ Kh6 70.Ng4+ Kg7 71.Ne3 Nd7 72.Kg4 Ne5+ 73.Kg3 Nc6 74.Nd3 Nd4 75.Kg4 Kh7 76.Ne1 Nc6 77.Nf3 Kh6 78.Nf5+ Kh7 79.N5d4 Nb4 80.Ne1 Kg6 81.h5+ Kf6 82.Nec2 Nd3 83.Nc6 Nf2+ 84.Kh4 Nd3 85.N6b4 Nf4 86.Kg4 Nxh5 87.Kxh5 Kf5 88.Nd4+ Kf6 89.Nbc2 Kg7 90.Kg5 Kh7 91.Ne6 Kh8 92.Kf6 Kh7 93.Kf7 Kh8 94.Nf4 Kh7 95.Ng6 Kh6 96.Nf8 Kg5 97.Ne6+ Kh6 98.Nf8 Kg5 99.Kg7 Kf5 100.Nd7 Ke4 101.Nc5+ Kf5 102.Nb3 Ke6 103.Nbd4+ Ke7 104.Nf5+ Ke8 105.Kg8 Kd8 106.Kf8 Kd7 107.Kf7 Kd8 108.Nd6 Kd7 109.Ne8 Kc6 110.Ke6 Kb5 111.Kd5 Ka4 112.Kc4 Ka5 113.Nf6 Kb6 114.Kd5 Kc7 115.Kc5 Kb7 116.Nd5 Kc8 117.Kd6 Kb7 118.Kd7 Kb8 119.Ne7 Kb7 120.Nc8 Ka6 121.Kc6 Ka5 122.Nb6 Ka6 123.Nc4 Ka7 124.Nd6 Ka6 125.Nb7 Ka7 126.Nc5 Kb8 127.Kd7 Ka7 128.Kc7 Ka8 129.Kb6 Kb8 130.Nb7 Kc8 131.Kc6 Kb8 132.Nd6 Ka7 133.Kb5 Kb8 134.Kb6 Ka8 135.Kc7 Ka7 136.Nb4 Ka8 [ 136...c2 137.Nc8+ Ka8 138.Nc6 c1Q 139.Nb6#] 137.Nc8 [ 137.Nc8 c2 138.Nc6 c1Q 139.Nb6#] 1–0

Originally posted by Sam The Sham
Mate with king and two knights against king+pawn, how many people are actually good enough to do that in under 50 moves, if at all?

I once played an IM in a simul- I was down material and sacked a minor piece such that it was K and 2 Knights vs. king and one pawn- even though it was a simul he managed to mate me!

Originally posted by chesskid001
I once played an IM in a simul- I was down material and sacked a minor piece such that it was K and 2 Knights vs. king and one pawn- even though it was a simul he managed to mate me!

When I practice these, Fritz keeps muttering "not many choices, are there" and then, just before I crush the beast, "wee, the rabbit's free, all the way to the other side."