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  1. 11 Jul '06 12:19
    Two games where White has played Nxe5, leaving the queen temptingly exposed. In both cases, taking the queen leads to mate.

    Game 2095533
    Game 1864796

    In the game where I was White, I believe that best defence would still have left me a pawn up.

    However, it seems to me that this situation is a fairly plausible situation to arise in a game, and wonder whether there are any examples people have come across. I can't find anything in databases, but this may reflect the fact that this trap is very well known. Does it have a name?
  2. 11 Jul '06 12:34
    Originally posted by Rank outsider
    Two games where White has played Nxe5, leaving the queen temptingly exposed. In both cases, taking the queen leads to mate.

    Game 2095533
    Game 1864796

    In the game where I was White, I believe that best defence would still have left me a pawn up.

    However, it seems to me that this situation is a fairly plausible situation to arise i ...[text shortened]... tabases, but this may reflect the fact that this trap is very well known. Does it have a name?
    That is known as Legal's mate. The best defense would have been Nxe5 in which case the game may have continued

    7. Nxe5? Nxe5
    8. Qxh5 Nxc4

    You have gained a pawn and a bishop but lost a bishop and a knight. Hence, the best defense would win the game for black.

    A slight improvement might have been to interpose Bxh7+ before capturing the bishop on h5.
  3. 11 Jul '06 12:54
    Originally posted by zebano
    That is known as Legal's mate. The best defense would have been Nxe5 in which case the game may have continued

    7. Nxe5? Nxe5
    8. Qxh5 Nxc4

    You have gained a pawn and a bishop but lost a bishop and a knight. Hence, the best defense would win the game for black.

    A slight improvement might have been to interpose Bxh7+ before capturing the bishop on h5.
    It is called Legals Mate - its a position that can occur from the petrov.


    In the first game, I agree with your conclusion, best defence still leaves a pawn up: -
    Nxe5 Qxh5 Nxc5 Qb5+ Qd7 Qxc4


    Zebano, I think you missed Qb5+

    and Interposing With Bxf7+ could be just counted with Bxf7 couldn't it?



    In secound game, we have someone making a complete hash up.

    I am slightly Confused by one of Blacks moves however.

    Nxe5?

    if the plan was Nxe5 d5 [pawn fork] then I can't see how it can't be countered with Bxf7+ Kxf7 Nxe5 exd4? Nfg5+ [Kg8? Qxg4 dxe3?? Qe6#] Ke8 Qxg4 exd4 - and I think white has a nice attack.
  4. 11 Jul '06 13:08 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Shinidoki

    In secound game, we have someone making a complete hash up.

    I am slightly Confused by one of Blacks moves however.

    Nxe5?

    if the plan was Nxe5 d5 [pawn fork] then I can't see how it can't be countered with Bxf7+ Kxf7 Nxe5 exd4? Nfg5+ [Kg8? Qxg4 dxe3?? Qe6#] Ke8 Qxg4 exd4 - and I think white has a nice attack.
    Because if black plays d5 it's impossible for white to play Bxf7+

    But I can't really figure out your line.Would you mind including movenumbers cause I find it very confusing this way: you say you're confused by black's 7....,Nxe5 after which you have white play 8.d5 and then without a black response white plays 9.Bxf7+
  5. 11 Jul '06 13:15
    Thanks for the name of the mate.

    Yes, move numbers would be very helpful, as I also struggled to follow the analysis on the second game.
  6. 11 Jul '06 16:02 / 1 edit
    Ok then - Move numbers.... and also, a few edits...

    6...Nxe4 7.Nxe4? (Nxe5 is clearly a blunder) d5 (pawn fork)

    SO, INSTEAD OF NXE5 white should play Bxf7+

    7.Bxf7+ Kxf7 8.Nxe4 exd4? 9.Nfg5+ [Kg8? 10.Qxg4 dxe3?? 11.Qe6#]...Ke8 10.Qxg4 exd4

    Better now??
  7. 11 Jul '06 16:53
    Originally posted by Shinidoki
    Ok then - Move numbers.... and also, a few edits...

    6...Nxe4 7.Nxe4? (Nxe5 is clearly a blunder) d5 (pawn fork)

    SO, INSTEAD OF NXE5 white should play Bxf7+

    7.Bxf7+ Kxf7 8.Nxe4 exd4? 9.Nfg5+ [Kg8? 10.Qxg4 dxe3?? 11.Qe6#]...Ke8 10.Qxg4 exd4

    Better now??
    Yes,much more clear
  8. 12 Jul '06 08:45 / 1 edit
    I am slightly Confused by one of Blacks moves however.

    Nxe5?
    Sorry, but I am still struggling. You say that White's move Nxe4 is clearly a blunder, but my move Nxe5 was a response to this move.

    Why is Nxe5 a confusing move? Or did you simply mean that the position prior to White's mistake was quite strong, had the correct move been played, which I am happy to accept.

    I don't think we need to be saracastic, I am just trying to follow the argument.
  9. 12 Jul '06 11:46
    Originally posted by Rank outsider
    Sorry, but I am still struggling. You say that White's move Nxe4 is clearly a blunder, but my move Nxe5 was a response to this move.

    Why is Nxe5 a confusing move? Or did you simply mean that the position prior to White's mistake was quite strong, had the correct move been played, which I am happy to accept.

    I don't think we need to be saracastic, I am just trying to follow the argument.
    He's confused about black's 6...,Nxe4 and white's 7.Nxe5,or so I think.
    Your 7...,Nxe5 is good,it's the refutation of white's 7.Nxe5 which is based on the hope black will be greedy and grab the queen after which he'll be mated as you know very well.

    Your 6...,Nxe4 on the other hand gets refuted by the bishopsac on f7.