PAWN RIOT VS The Forum Move 35

Originally posted by Big Orange Country
and on top of that i have two things, first someone refute Rxe7 as white's response. second, is this Pawn Riot guy looking at these threads and soaking up all of our analysis?

If 36. Rxe7, then 36...Ng2 maybe?

Originally posted by ptobler
Is it possible that we could have this earlier analysis posted here to refresh our memories? That would be great

I will try to find it, yes.

Here it is!

I post the sum up I tried to make last time (most ideas aren't mine!)

=====> 30...Ra4 31.Kb2 Ne4+

I copy here alternatives to Ne4+, but they don't seem so convincing... but maybe someone wants to have a look at the position! we didn't go in depth with these lines, which keep from general exchange.

"31 (A) ... Nxa2+ 32. Be4 and our situation is pretty bad.
31 (B). ... Rxa2+ 32. Kc1

and then, I see then four average possible moves.

32. the expected 32. ... Bf5 threatening c2.
and the two other possible moves (since we have to move our white bishop): 32. ...Be6 attacking the Knight,
32. ... Ba4 attacking the Knight, but also threatening the c2 pawn, whenever he moves the Knight.
what maybe expected is B d4 to exchange our dear black bishop. and going to soso ending.
32. Bc5, preparing Ne2+. at least, he cannot play Bd4 anymore..."

But let's go on with the Ne4 hypothesis.

=====> 32. Rd4 Nxf2 33. R8xd7 Nd1+ 34. Kc1 Bxd4 35. Nxd4

- here White can take with the Rook, but this is not very convincing: after something like :
35. Rxd4 Rxd4 36. Nxd4 Ne3
White cannot prevent the loss of a pawn:
- 37. f4 (to avoid Ng2 threatening h3). 37. ... Ng2 and f4 cannot be defended.
- or 37 Kd2 Ng2 and h4 cannot be defended.

so Nxd4 seems better.

====> then 35. ... Ne3 the best move no doubt... actually, Nf2 wouldn't make any sense, since the objective was precisely to bring the Knight on e3...

=====> 36. c3 here, I think there might be a better move than c3. c3 is OK, but with 36. Kb2 I think white gain one tempo (due to the fact that then he will not play c3 and then c4, but c4 straight.
that would be:

36. after for instance: 36. Kb2 Nf5 37. Nxf5 gxf5 38. Rxe7 Kg6 39. Kb3 Rxh4, white can play c4 at the 40th move... instead of the 41st.

EDIT: I just read my previous post, and after Kb2, I had suggested we blacks could play Ng2, but this is finally not very good for us I think. But still I mention it to make thinks clear.

36. Kb2 Ng2 37. Kb3 Ra6 (and here we find back what I suggested in one of my posts) 38. Rxe7 Kg7 and here white can play 39. Re4 (there is no f5 pawn...) protecting h4.

in anycase, this will be our choice, so it does not invalidate the whole line. 36. Kb2 Nf5 still holds!

the other alternative to c3 is 36. Rxe7 Rxd4 37. Rxe3 Rxh4. and the situation is between draw and win for us, I would say. our pawn will promote faster, and our rook can go quickly on the c file.

So i would expect Kb2 from Whites (of course to the condition that he considers seriously the following Nf5! because if he misses that, the most likely is c3... and then we are better. actually, in that situation, a5 wouldn't be so obvious, we may just give it up to gain one tempo..., since he will not bring his a pawn anywhere).

36. ... Nf5 still seems the best move. I tried everything else I think in my previous posts, without results...

=====> 37. Nxf5

Tomtom suggested Kb2 here (after 36. c3),

I copy his words here: "We would have to eliminate 37...Nxh4 38.Rxe7 Kg7? Since that is a dead draw instead 38...Kg8! And if 39.Kb3? (obvious looking move but a grave mistake.) we have 39...Ra5! 40.a4 Ng2! Which looks very good for us... Now that leaves 39.Re2 and 39.Re4 both of which look like they can probably draw...unless I have missed something these lines are still much better for white than the 37.Nxf5 lines."

=====> 37. gxf5 necessary.

=====> 38. Rxe7
is the more logical move. Actually, the only other thing I can think of is Kb3, to increase c4 speed. but it doesn't so much, since Rxe7 also win one tempo, by threatening f7.
so Kb3 would be a mere transposition I think.
(38. Kb3 Rxh4 39. Rxe7 Kg6. 40. c4 ... )

=====> 38. ... Kg6
pretty necessary.

=====> 39. Kb3 here, in RS line, here we should play 39. Kb2 a5. but if we go on supposing 36. Kb2 instead of 36. c3 (as I think is slightly better for white), white has some new opportunity: 39. Kb3. the most logical move... that mean we cannot save the a pawn anymore...

=====> 39. ... Rxh4 40. c4 Rook xh4 is logical, and then two possibilities for white: either Rx a7, or c4. c4 would be more powerful I guess.
to ease the comparison with RS, I make this hypothesis.
and then we come back to RS line, one move earlier... the difference are: White didn't do c3 and c4 but c4 straight, and black didn't move a7 to a5. So a bit better than expected for white, but not even sure, since it is not obvious that Rxa7 is good move. in which case, it's back to our situation.


then, might follow RS line, one move earlier :


=====> 40. ... Rh1 41. f4 h4 42.c5 Rc1
pretty logical. at any time, Rxa7 should be considered though.

=====> and here, instead of Re8, maybe Rxa7...
44. Rxa7 h3... but white is pretty bad. so Re8? but not so convincing. It seems pretty good to us.

I think that Ne3 is the move; and then things will start to get tricky, depending on what he plays.

I think Big Orange Country has a good point, what do we do after 35...Ne3 35 Rxe7??

Well something like 1. ... Ne3 2. Rxe7 Rxd4 3. Rxe3 (Rxf7+ looses a piece after Kg8) Rxh4 and I think our situation is pretty good, for h5 will soon go to h1.

if he plays 4. Re7, then 4. ... Rh1+ 5.Kd2 Kg7 6. Rxa7 and we are one pawn down, but will promote faster (the a7 pawn being pretty useless I think)
Other possibility (better at first sight I would say) is 4. Re7 Kg7 5. Rxa7 Rc4 preventing the c pawn to promote, while at the same time freeing the h pawn way.

anyway playing Kg7 first is more interesting as it enables us to keep the following move secret and adapt it to what he plays.

Finally, I think that 3. ... Rh1+ is pretty bad. On the contrary, after

1. Rxe7 Rxd4 2. Rxe3 Rxh4 3. Re7 Kg7 4. Rxa7 Rf4

(better than Rc4 actually, for Rc4 gives one tempo to white on the long term, when he will move his king in d2 and d3. on the contrary, Rf4 threatens f3, which is pretty good. because the only defense sucks (Ra3).)

5. Ra3 h4

and white has to give up a pawn to prevent promotion. and still he is in a defensive position. his pawns are very far from promotion...


I was having a look at 1. Kd2 threatening the Knight on e3, but after Ng2, it seems ok.

Originally posted by Macpo
Finally, I think that 3. ... Rh1+ is pretty bad. On the contrary, after

1. Rxe7 Rxd4 2. Rxe3 Rxh4 3. Re7 Kg7 4. Rxa7 Rf4

(better than Rc4 actually, for Rc4 gives one tempo to white on the long term, when he will move his king in d2 and d3. on the contrary, Rf4 threatens f3, which is pretty good. because the only defense sucks (Ra3).)

5. Ra3 h4

...[text shortened]... ..


I was having a look at 1. Kd2 threatening the Knight on e3, but after Ng2, it seems ok.

so we are agreeing that Rxe7 is harmless?
all the analysis sounds good...
And i dont suppose the white king can make it to the h-file in time to stop promotion... and if he tried it would be a waste of tempi because the black rook just sets a baricade on any file he chooses (probably the f-file, as you suggest)

Well, I will not take the responsibility for this alone 🙂 but I think it's OK. I didn't spend so much time on it though...

Originally posted by Macpo
Well, I will not take the responsibility for this alone 🙂 but I think it's OK. I didn't spend so much time on it though...

ok so what if after rxe7 rxd4 rxe3 rxh4, white goes with Re2?
that seems to hold and allow the c-pawn to advance while defending the f-pawn via Rf2, and the white king has time to come to the kingside if needed, right? i know im probably pushing this line too far, but it'd be a shame to work on this game since october for many of you guys and have it fall apart by overlooking one nuance. so anyway, what after Re2?

No sure! that's the way we improve and will win! that's a pretty good question. By the way, you're right that we neglected a bit this line.

I don't have board now, but one important thing to consider I think in the long term is black paying f6, to exchange g5 and then have the two g and h pawns.

maybe something like:

1. Re2 Rf4 2. Rf2 Kg7 3. Kb2 f6 4. gxf6 Kxf6 and we are in a somewhat better position i would say, because our king is by now active.

Or what about playing Rg4 instead of Rf4, and threatening g5?

1. Re2 Rg4 2. Re5 h4
and he will loose time and pawns to defend, I would say.

or even
1. Re2 Rf4 2. Rf2 Rg4 (preventing the possibility to play 2. Re5)

(i am doing all this without board, so I can very much miss something!)

Originally posted by Macpo
No sure! that's the way we improve and will win! that's a pretty good question. By the way, you're right that we neglected a bit this line.

I don't have board now, but one important thing to consider I think in the long term is black paying f6, to exchange g5 and then have the two g and h pawns.

maybe something like:

1. Re2 Rf4 2. Rf2 Kg7 3. Kb2 f ...[text shortened]... to play 2. Re5)

(i am doing all this without board, so I can very much miss something!)

rook cant go to g4 b/c of pawn on f3...
that keeps this interesting anyway.

yes you're right... I will check this later, for it is still somewhat unclear.
though i don't think this line really prevent us from playing Ne3 right now.

what about something like 1. Re2 Rf4 2. Rf2 Rf5, threatening g5 and f3 at the same time, and finally gaining one pawn ?

EDIT of course he would play f4... forget it!

Originally posted by Macpo
what about something like 1. Re2 Rf4 2. Rf2 Rf5, threatening g5 and f3 at the same time, and finally gaining one pawn ?

EDIT of course he would play f4... forget it!

After Re2 we have some tricky tactics and if I remember my analysis correct we sac our knight in some lines.. I didn't post this and I don't have me notebook with me at the moment. Let's just say that we don't really need to fear anything from white. I am dead certain that we have a draw in our back pocket if we can't find a win and white will have to fight to not lose.