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  1. 18 Feb '09 17:14
    This is a continuation of Thread 107256.

    Our last move was 23. ... Qxc4.

    PAWN RIOT has replied 24.Qxc4 and if Rxc4 25.Rd1.

    I think that the recapture is forced for us, so I will go on and skip that move.

    It is our move once again in this position:

  2. 18 Feb '09 17:41
    I like Nd6, it defends our 7th rank from his rook (though it is close to being pinned and might not be an issue). Also, it makes our useless knight part of the game and opens the way for the king....one problem I see is Rb8...in which we have to either force our king on the side or block with a piece...
  3. 18 Feb '09 18:05
    Nd6 also threatens Nf5 which is a decent looking move.
  4. Donation !~TONY~!
    1...c5!
    18 Feb '09 18:15
    I think 25...Nc7 was the move proposed me by me first, then analyzed thoroughly by ResigningSoon. Then maybe it was something like 26. Rb8+ Kh7 27. d6 exd6 28. Kb1. I can't really remember, but to me 25...Nc7, recovering the d-pawn and landing on d5 with tempo makes the most sense.
  5. 18 Feb '09 18:25
    Originally posted by !~TONY~!
    I think 25...Nc7 was the move proposed me by me first, then analyzed thoroughly by ResigningSoon. Then maybe it was something like 26. Rb8+ Kh7 27. d6 exd6 28. Kb1. I can't really remember, but to me 25...Nc7, recovering the d-pawn and landing on d5 with tempo makes the most sense.
    You're right Tony - I've still got most of the analysis from Resigning Soon and yourself in my ChessBase (along with a few moves of my own).

    25...Nc7 looks very logical and sensible to me too.
  6. 18 Feb '09 20:22
    I have not participated yet in the discussion for this game, but after looking through the position I hope I can add some input?

    25. Nc7 seems strongest, as Tony said it hits d5 with tempo...! considering this, I think white can play 26. d6...
    26. exd6 after which white could play check on the back ranks to free some pressure from the pin forcing us to play Kh7
    27. Rb8+, Kh7
    28. Rb7?! pinning the knight and hitting the a7 pawn, and also attempting to stop Nd5 by us, which I think will be a much stronger position then the knight on f5... However, we can follow up with a move like Be6 freeing the knight and adding pressure along the a2 diagnal and possibly moving to d5! The centralization will greatly improve blacks position. White may try to play something like
    29. Kb2, or even Rd3 to try and release pressure on the pin by the Bishop and possibly push for c3 which would greatly improve whites position. Either way, I think Bd5 or Nd5 from this postion will be strong for black...

    I hope this makes sense lol!!
  7. 19 Feb '09 00:46
    25...Nc7 was the planned move here with the following variation in mind: 25...Nc7 26.Rb8+ Kh7 27.d6 exd6 (28.Rb7 Ba4? i think?)I'm sure I had more, I'll have to find it.

    But to be exhaustive I've decided to try to analyze moves I don't trust. One must be fair:

    25...Kh7 (this move makes sense, we'll probably have to make it anyway) 26.Rb7 Nc7 27.d6 exd6 and we've reached the above line but lost a tempo (white didn't have to play Rb8). Now this may not be best for either side but it seems this is enough reason not to play Kh7 right away.

    25...Nd6 (this move appears logical) 26.Rb8+ Kh7 27.Kb1 White seems to be solving his problems 27...Ba4 Rd2 I think our pieces are placed great, but we're running out of ways to improve them while White's position can continue to improve. Mostly it just feels like we've lost our initiative. Here's another line with more initiative:
    25...Nd6 26.Rb8+ Kh7 27.Kb1 Nf5 28.Nxf5 Bxf5 29.Rc1 Be5(Rxh4 directly also)
    pawns are falling. Can we draw it?

    How about that a-pawn? It seems to be falling in our variations, can we save it? I'm not sure what would be better: a5 (gives us the b4 square) or a6 (gives us the b5 square). I don't want to look at both so I'll consider a6 since it restricts the knight and maybe gives us another place for our bishop.

    25...a6 26.Rb8 Kh7 (Rxc2 is probably another move) 27.Kb1 (Rb7, Rd8 other tries) Nc7 This line(lines) doesn't look too bad, I haven't analyzed all variations though because I don't believe in it. Moving a rook-pawn in this position just feels like a bad idea. Maybe the move has some merit though and if anyone makes arguments for it, I'll put some more effort into looking at it(this includes 26...a5 as well).

    25...Ba4 I have to look at this move, I've felt that this bishop should be on a4 almost the entire game, but there hasn't been time to move it there yet, so is now the time? 26.Kb1 Nc7 27.Rb8+ Kh7 28.Rc8 I'm not sure where to go from here yet; lots of tries.

    Anyways, this is just a pre-analysis; for a position without queens it remains complicated. For a non-concrete argument though, our knight is our worse piece and c7 seems the best place for it.
  8. 19 Feb '09 01:26
    Either a6 or a5 would help preserve the pawn. Is the pawn worth the move to save it. Could having control of b5 or b4 be useful?
  9. Standard member black beetle
    Black Beastie
    19 Feb '09 06:01
    I vote 25. ...Nc7.
  10. 19 Feb '09 06:02
    Nd6
  11. 22 Feb '09 06:06
    Nc7
  12. 22 Feb '09 12:44
    Here is my attempt at getting something more from the position.

    Itsyouthatiadore, i agree with your line.

    After 28. Rb7, we need to take a good look at how we can keep our pressure up.

    How usefull really is the a7 pawn for white? If white's rook is on a7 it is very difficult to get back into play. Attack the rook on b7 with 28..Bc8!? with tempo and if he takes the pawn we have his rook out of play for some time. As white is up on material his objective must be to nullify our positional advantage by giving up as little material as possible - will he really grab a pawn at the cost of more momentum for us? I think i have a winning line if Rxa7?

    Nc7 d6
    exd6 Rb8+
    Kh7 Rb7
    Bc8! Rxa7?
    Nxd5 Bg1 (only move)
    Nc3! Rd3 (Rd2?? Rb4! seems to win)
    Ne2 seems to be winning to me? It's still active however.

    Instead he would more likely play Rb3 after Bc8 to keep the rook in play where Nd5 can be played attacking the bishop. We are very active in this line. Building pressure on the knight pin - does this suggest whites Ka1 move was inferior to Kc1?

    I'm tired, so let me look into Rb3 as a response at another time. Howvere i think i have shown Rxa7?? is bad.

    Possible line from brief look a couple of moves after Rb3 instead of Rxa7.

    Nc7 d6
    exd6 Rb8+
    Kh7 Rb7
    Bc8! Rb3
    Nd5 Bg1

    Here we can nab the c2 pawn. We must remember that here our c8 bishop seems pinned to c8 or a6 as we do not want Rb7 again with our weak a7 but especially our weak f7 pawn - Rxf7 pinning the bishop and building pressure on the king seems to be something we must avoid.

    Here i don't know what the line following would be, i haven't looked into it. Does anyone disagree with my 'best lines'? I had my doubts about this game before but now its a little bit of a masterpeice.

    I suspect white must now try to play for a draw, as we have an edge.

    My vote Nc7!

    Although i admit i haven't looked deeply into any other lines other than this with Bc8 but if someone finds a better line, great, otherwise i would propose this.

    Are we adding to existing theory on this dubious opening? possibly proving it is viable?
  13. 22 Feb '09 14:16
    I'll vote Nc7
  14. Standard member ptobler
    Patzer
    23 Feb '09 02:50 / 4 edits
    Having a look at 25...a5:

    25...a5 26. Rb7 (26. Rb8 Rxc2 27. Kb1 Rc4 28. Rd8 Ba4 29. Rd3 or 29.Rd2) Nc7 27 Rb8+ (27 Kb2 Ba4; 27 Kb1 Ba4) Kh7 is the best start I can see so far - we lose the initiative but keep the a-pawn - probably not good enough for us - but requiring deeper analysis

    My vote so far is 25...Nc7
  15. Standard member ptobler
    Patzer
    23 Feb '09 04:25 / 2 edits
    expanding on one of the above lines:

    25...a5 26 Rb7 Nc7 27 Kb1 Ba4 28 Ra7 Bxd4 29 Rxd4 Bxc2+ 30 Kb2 Rc5 31 Rd2 Ba4 32 Ka3