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  1. 30 Jul '07 22:15
    is it any good? THe people I've played that used this got whooped, beaten and thrown around after they played the philidor.
  2. 30 Jul '07 22:22
    Originally posted by Dance Master MC
    is it any good? THe people I've played that used this got whooped, beaten and thrown around after they played the philidor.
    I'm always pretty happy when I see it as white. To help put you off, this was my last game against a Philidor user:
    Game 3609503
  3. Donation !~TONY~!
    1...c5!
    30 Jul '07 22:36
    I think it's better than people think it is. There was a thread by someone around here with some analysis in it, and there is a new, very large book on it by Christian Bauer. Check it out!
  4. 30 Jul '07 22:59 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Dance Master MC
    is it any good? THe people I've played that used this got whooped, beaten and thrown around after they played the philidor.
    The Philidor may be a practical choice against certain opponents when used sparingly, but no top GMs use it as part of their regular repertoire. The Philidor is just a bit too passive and it gives White the opportunity to play for a win with little chance for losing. Some GM names are sometimes mentioned as being practitioners of the Philidor, but that's mostly just for sparkle. Aronian (2750) is mentioned as using it, but he only used it twice at the Amber Blindfold 2006 (Aronian lost to Anand and drew with Ivanchuk). Dreev (2606) is often cited as playing a few games with the Philidor, but according to the chessgames database, the last time Dreev played the Philidor was 1992! Bacrot (2695) has played the Philidor with the early ...exd4 variation, and he's drawn once with Topalov, but lost twice to Grischuk. The only point I'm making is when you read that Aronian, Dreev, and Bacrot support the Philidor and use it, well, take it with a grain of salt because it isn't a defence they seem to count on day in and day out. For we mere mortals, the Philidor is certainly a playable option, but the current GM consensus is: Today's Phildor experiment....FAILED.

    --
  5. Standard member irontigran
    Rob Scheider is..
    30 Jul '07 23:18
  6. 31 Jul '07 02:52
    British GM Tony Kosten uses the philidor a lot in my data base.
  7. Standard member Korch
    Chess Warrior
    31 Jul '07 07:06 / 4 edits
    Originally posted by Doctor Rat
    ...... but the current GM consensus is: Today's Phildor experiment....FAILED.

    --
    Are you sure? Philidor is not so popular, but I advice you to read discussion about soundness and popularity in Thread 70577.

    Here are some examples which shows that GM`s can play Philidor and reach good results.

    [Event "Amber-rapid 13th"]
    [Site "Monte Carlo"]
    [Date "2004.03.20"]
    [Round "9"]
    [White "Leko,Peter"]
    [Black "Svidler,Peter"]
    [Result "1/2"]
    [Eco "C41"]
    1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Be7 6.Bf4 0-0 7.Qd2 d5 8.e5 Nh5
    9.Nf3 Nxf4 10.Qxf4 c6 11.Bd3 Nd7 12.0-0 Nc5 13.Bf5 g5 14.Qg4 h5 15.Qh3 g4 16.Qxh5 Bxf5
    17.Qxf5 gxf3 18.Qg4+ Kh7 19.Qh5+ Kg7 20.Qg4+ Kh6 21.Qh3+ Kg6 22.Qg4+ Bg5 23.h4 Rh8 24.hxg5 Rh5
    25.Qxf3 Qxg5 26.Qf6+ Qxf6 27.exf6 Rah8 28.f3 Kxf6 29.Ne2 Ne6 30.Kf2 Rh2 31.Rad1 Rg8 32.Rg1 Ng5
    33.Kf1 Re8 34.Nf4 Re5 35.Nd3 Rf5 36.Nf2 Rh4 1/2

    [Event "Mainz Ordix op"]
    [Site "Mainz"]
    [Date "2004.08.05"]
    [Round "5"]
    [White "Varga,Zoltan"]
    [Black "Bacrot,Etienne"]
    [Result "0-1"]
    [Eco "C41"]
    1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Be7 6.Bf4 0-0 7.Qd2 d5 8.Ndb5 c6
    9.Nc7 d4 10.Ne2 g5 11.Nxa8 gxf4 12.Qxf4 Na6 13.0-0-0 c5 14.Ng3 Ng4 15.Kb1 Bd6 16.Qf3 Ne5
    17.Qf4 Ng6 18.Qf3 Ne5 19.Qf4 Qe7 20.Nf5 Bxf5 21.exf5 Rxa8 22.f6 Qf8 23.Qe4 Nb4 24.g4 Nbc6
    25.h4 Qh6 26.g5 Qg6 27.Bg2 Qxe4 28.Bxe4 Rd8 29.f3 Nc4 30.h5 Bf4 31.Rhg1 Nd2+ 32.Ka1 Nxe4
    33.fxe4 Ne5 34.Rdf1 Be3 35.Rg2 c4 36.Rf5 Re8 37.b3 d3 38.bxc4 d2 39.Rf1 Nxc4 40.c3 Rd8
    41.Rd1 Ne5 42.Kb1 Nf3 43.g6 Ne1 44.gxh7+ Kxh7 45.Rg7+ Kh6 46.Rxf7 Nd3 47.Rxb7 Nf2 48.Kc2 Nxd1
    49.Kxd1 Rg8 50.Ke2 Rg2+ 0-1


    [Event "Bundesliga 0405"]
    [Site "Germany"]
    [Date "2004.11.12"]
    [Round "9"]
    [White "Naiditsch,Arkadij"]
    [Black "Nisipeanu,Liviu Dieter"]
    [Result "1/2"]
    [Eco "C41"]
    1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Be7 6.Nde2 Nc6 7.g3 0-0 8.Bg2 Re8
    9.h3 Rb8 10.f4 Nd7 11.0-0 b5 12.Nd5 Bf8 13.g4 Na5 14.Ng3 c6 15.Ne3 d5 16.exd5 cxd5
    17.Nxd5 Nf6 18.Kh2 Bb7 19.Ne3 Qb6 20.Bxb7 Qxb7 21.Qf3 Qxf3 22.Rxf3 Rbd8 23.Ng2 Rd1 24.Rd3 Rxd3
    25.cxd3 Rd8 26.Be3 Rxd3 27.Bxa7 Rd2 28.b3 Nd5 29.Kh1 Nc6 30.Bg1 b4 31.Re1 Rxa2 32.Re8 Nf6
    33.Rc8 Ne7 34.Rb8 Nc6 35.Rc8 Ne7 36.Rb8 1/2

    [Event "RUS Fed Internet Cup Final 5'"]
    [Site "chessassistantclub.com INT"]
    [Date "2004.12.28"]
    [Round "17"]
    [White "Motylev,Alexander"]
    [Black "Grischuk,Alexander"]
    [Result "1/2"]
    [Eco "C41"]
    1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Be7 6.g3 d5 7.e5 Ng4 8.Bf4 g5
    9.e6 h5 10.exf7+ Kxf7 11.Bc1 Bc5 12.Bg2 Nc6 13.Be3 Nxe3 14.fxe3 Bxd4 15.exd4 Re8+ 16.Ne2 Kg7
    17.0-0 Bg4 18.Bf3 Qe7 19.Bxg4 Qe3+ 20.Kg2 hxg4 21.Nc3 Qxd4 22.Rf5 Qxd1 23.Rxd1 d4 24.Nb5 Re2+
    25.Rf2 Rxf2+ 26.Kxf2 Rf8+ 27.Kg2 Re8 28.Kf2 Rf8+ 29.Kg2 Kg6 30.Nxc7 Rf5 31.Ne6 Re5 32.Nxd4 Nxd4
    33.Rxd4 Re2+ 34.Kg1 Rxc2 35.Rb4 b6 36.a4 Kf5 37.a5 bxa5 38.Rb5+ Kg6 39.Rxa5 Rxb2 40.Rxa7 Rb1+
    41.Kg2 Rb2+ 42.Kg1 Rb1+ 43.Kg2 Rb2+ 44.Kg1 1/2

    [Event "FRA-chT Top 16 GpA"]
    [Site "Mulhouse"]
    [Date "2005.02.04"]
    [Round "2"]
    [White "Gouliev,Namig"]
    [Black "Bacrot,Etienne"]
    [Result "1/2"]
    [Eco "C41"]
    1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Be7 6.Be2 0-0 7.0-0 Re8 8.Re1 Bf8
    9.Bf1 Nbd7 10.g3 Ne5 11.Bg2 Bg4 12.f3 c5 13.Nf5 Bxf5 14.exf5 d5 15.Bf4 Qd6 16.Rxe5 Rxe5
    17.Bxe5 Qxe5 18.f4 Qxf5 19.Nxd5 c4 20.Qd4 Nxd5 21.Bxd5 Qxc2 22.Bxf7+ Kxf7 23.Qd5+ Kf6 24.Qe5+
    1/2

    [Event "Montecatini Terme"]
    [Site "Montecatini Terme"]
    [Date "2000.07.28"]
    [Round "5"]
    [White "Ivanchuk,Vassily"]
    [Black "Azmaiparashvili,Zurab"]
    [Result "1/2"]
    [Eco "C41"]
    1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 Nbd7 5.Bc4 Be7 6.0-0 0-0 7.a4 c6 8.Re1 Re8
    9.a5 Bf8 10.d5 b5 11.Bb3 cxd5 12.Nxd5 h6 13.c3 a6 14.Be3 Bb7 15.Bb6 Nxb6 16.Nxb6 Rb8
    17.Qd3 Bc6 18.Nh4 Nd7 19.Qf3 Qf6 20.Nxd7 Bxd7 21.Qxf6 gxf6 22.Bd5 Rec8 23.Red1 Be7 24.Rd3 b4
    25.c4 Rc5 26.b3 Bd8 27.Rd2 Rxa5 28.Rxa5 Bxa5 29.Ra2 Bb6 30.Rxa6 Bc5 31.Kf1 Kg7 32.Ke2 Rc8
    1/2

    [Event "Pamplona 0102"]
    [Site "Pamplona"]
    [Date "2001.12.27"]
    [Round "1"]
    [White "De la Riva Aguado,Oscar"]
    [Black "Bologan,Viktor"]
    [Result "0-1"]
    [Eco "C41"]
    1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 Nbd7 5.g3 c6 6.a4 Be7 7.Bg2 0-0 8.0-0 Re8
    9.h3 Bf8 10.Re1 b6 11.Be3 Bb7 12.Nd2 a6 13.g4 h6 14.d5 b5 15.dxc6 Bxc6 16.Nf1 bxa4
    17.Qd3 Nh7 18.Nxa4 Ng5 19.Nc3 a5 20.Nd2 Ne6 21.Nc4 Nf4 22.Qd2 Nxg2 23.Kxg2 Nf6 24.f3 a4
    25.Nb6 Rb8 26.Ncxa4 Bxa4 27.Nxa4 d5 28.exd5 Nxd5 29.Rad1 Qc8 30.Qf2 Nxe3+ 31.Rxe3 f5 32.gxf5 Qxf5
    33.Re4 Re6 34.b3 Rg6+ 35.Kh2 Rf6 36.Kg2 Rc8 37.c4 Rcc6 38.Rd3 Rg6+ 39.Kh2 Be7 40.h4 Bxh4
    41.Qxh4 Rg5 42.Qh3 Rh5 43.Rd8+ Kh7 44.Rh4 Qc2+ 45.Kg1 Rg6+ 46.Kf1 Rxh4 47.Qxh4 Qg2+ 48.Ke1 Qxf3
    49.Qh2 Rg2 0-1

    [Event "Pamplona 0102"]
    [Site "Pamplona"]
    [Date "2001.12.27"]
    [Round "3"]
    [White "Moreno Carnero,Javier"]
    [Black "Bologan,Viktor"]
    [Result "1/2"]
    [Eco "C41"]
    1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 Nbd7 5.Bc4 Be7 6.0-0 0-0 7.Re1 c6 8.a4 a5
    9.b3 exd4 10.Nxd4 Nb6 11.Bf1 d5 12.e5 Ne8 13.Bd3 g6 14.Bh6 Ng7 15.Nce2 Re8 16.c3 Bg5
    17.Bxg5 Qxg5 18.f4 Qh6 19.Qc1 Bd7 20.Qe3 Nc8 21.Qf2 Ne7 22.b4 Rf8 23.bxa5 f6 24.exf6 Rxf6
    25.Rab1 Bc8 26.Nf3 Ne6 27.Nfd4 Nc5 28.Bc2 Rxa5 29.Qe3 Qf8 30.Ng3 Rf7 31.c4 dxc4 32.Qc3 Ra8
    33.Qxc4 Nd5 34.f5 Kg7 35.Ne6+ Nxe6 36.fxe6 Rf4 37.Qe2 Qe7 38.Qe5+ Kg8 39.Bb3 Rf6 40.Bxd5 cxd5
    41.Qxd5 1/2

    [Event "Internet Section 08A g/8'+2""]
    [Site "Dos Hermanas"]
    [Date "2004.03.08"]
    [Round "3"]
    [White "Pruess,David"]
    [Black "Azmaiparashvili,Zurab"]
    [Result "0-1"]
    [Eco "C41"]
    1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 Nbd7 5.Bc4 Be7 6.0-0 0-0 7.a4 c6 8.Re1 b6
    9.d5 cxd5 10.Bxd5 Nxd5 11.Nxd5 Nf6 12.Bg5 Nxd5 13.Qxd5 Be6 14.Qd2 f6 15.Be3 d5 16.exd5 Qxd5
    17.Red1 Qc6 18.b3 Rfd8 19.Qe2 Qc3 20.Bd4 Qc8 21.Be3 Bg4 22.Rxd8+ Bxd8 23.h3 Bh5 24.Rd1 e4
    25.Rxd8+ Qxd8 26.Qc4+ Kh8 27.Qxe4 Bg6 28.Qb7 Qc8 29.Qxc8+ Rxc8 30.c4 Kg8 31.Nd4 Be8 32.Kf1 Kf7
    33.Ke2 Bd7 34.Kd3 g5 35.Kc3 h5 36.Kd3 h4 37.Ke4 Rd8 38.Kd3 g4 39.hxg4 Bxg4 40.Kc3 Bd7
    41.Bf4 Rg8 42.g3 h3 43.Nf3 Re8 44.Nh2 Re2 45.Be3 Re1 46.g4 Rg1 47.Bf4 Bxg4 48.Bb8 Rg2
    49.Bg3 Bd1 50.b4 Bxa4 51.c5 bxc5 52.bxc5 Bc6 53.Kd4 a5 54.Kc3 f5 55.Kc4 f4 56.Bxf4 Rxf2
    57.Bd6 Re2 58.Bc7 a4 59.Kb4 Re4+ 60.Ka3 Re3+ 61.Ka2 Bd5+ 62.Ka1 a3 0-1

    [Event "RUS Fed Internet Cup Final 5'"]
    [Site "chessassistantclub.com INT"]
    [Date "2004.12.28"]
    [Round "12"]
    [White "Dreev,Alexey"]
    [Black "Azmaiparashvili,Zurab"]
    [Result "0-1"]
    [Eco "C41"]
    1.d4 d6 2.e4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 Nbd7 5.Bc4 Be7 6.0-0 0-0 7.Re1 c6 8.a4 b6
    9.b3 Bb7 10.Ba3 a6 11.Bd3 c5 12.dxe5 Nxe5 13.Nxe5 dxe5 14.Bc4 Qc7 15.Qe2 Rfd8 16.Rad1 Rd4
    17.Nd5 Nxd5 18.exd5 Bd6 19.Bb2 Rxd1 20.Rxd1 f6 21.Re1 Qf7 22.Qd3 g6 23.h3 Kg7 24.Bc3 Rd8
    25.f4 exf4 26.Re6 Be5 27.Bxe5 Qxe6 28.dxe6 Rxd3 29.cxd3 fxe5 30.Bxa6 Bxa6 0-1


    [Event "GRE-chT 34th"]
    [Site "Ermioni Argolidas"]
    [Date "2005.07.04"]
    [Round "6"]
    [White "Asrian,Karen"]
    [Black "Azmaiparashvili,Zurab"]
    [Result "1/2"]
    [Eco "C41"]
    1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 Nbd7 5.Bc4 Be7 6.0-0 0-0 7.Re1 c6 8.a4 b6
    9.d5 cxd5 10.Nxd5 Bb7 11.b3 Rc8 12.Re2 Nxd5 13.Bxd5 Bxd5 14.Qxd5 Nf6 15.Qd1 d5 16.exd5 Qxd5
    17.Qxd5 Nxd5 18.c4 Nc3 19.Re3 e4 20.Bb2 Bc5 21.Rxc3 exf3 22.Rxf3 Rcd8 23.Bc3 a5 24.Re1 Rd7
    25.g3 f6 26.Kg2 Kf7 27.h4 Rfd8 28.h5 Rd3 29.Rc1 Ke6 30.Re1+ Kf7 31.Rc1 Ke6 32.Re1+ Kf7
    1/2

    [Event "FIDE-Wch"]
    [Site "San Luis"]
    [Date "2005.09.28"]
    [Round "5"]
    [White "Polgar,Judit"]
    [Black "Morozevich,Alexander"]
    [Result "1/2"]
    [Eco "C41"]
    1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 Nbd7 5.Bc4 Be7 6.0-0 0-0 7.Qe2 exd4 8.Nxd4 Nb6
    9.Bb3 Nfd7 10.Be3 Nc5 11.Rad1 Bf6 12.f4 Qe7 13.Qf3 Bd7 14.Rfe1 Rae8 15.Bf2 g6 16.Qg3 Nxb3
    17.axb3 Bg7 18.Nf3 f6 19.Ra1 Nc8 20.Nd5 Qd8 21.c4 c6 22.Nc3 c5 23.Nd5 Ne7 24.b4 Nxd5
    25.cxd5 cxb4 26.Rxa7 Qc7 27.Raa1 f5 28.e5 Qc4 29.Rad1 Ba4 30.Rd2 Bc2 31.h4 Be4 32.Rd4 Qb3
    33.Ng5 Qxb2 34.Nxe4 fxe4 35.Rdxe4 dxe5 36.Qd3 Qc3 37.Qb5 b3 38.R4e3 Qc2 39.Rxb3 Rd8 40.Bb6 Qd2
    41.Rbb1 Rxd5 1/2

    [Event "Moscow Superblitz"]
    [Site "Moscow"]
    [Date "2006.01.05"]
    [Round "20"]
    [White "Korotylev,Alexey"]
    [Black "Svidler,Peter"]
    [Result "0-1"]
    [Eco "C41"]
    1.d4 d6 2.e4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 Nbd7 5.Bc4 Be7 6.0-0 0-0 7.Re1 c6 8.a4 b6
    9.Bg5 Bb7 10.Nh4 g6 11.Bh6 Re8 12.Nf3 Ng4 13.Bd2 exd4 14.Nxd4 Nge5 15.Ba2 Nf6 16.f4 Ned7
    17.Qf3 Bf8 18.Nde2 Bg7 19.Ng3 a6 20.Rad1 b5 21.Bc1 Qc7 22.Kh1 b4 23.Nb1 Nc5 24.Nd2 Nxa4
    25.Nc4 d5 26.Ne5 Nc5 27.exd5 cxd5 28.Qf2 a5 29.Be3 Rac8 30.Bd4 Ne6 31.c3 Nxd4 32.cxd4 a4
    33.f5 b3 34.Bb1 Re7 35.fxg6 fxg6 36.Qd2 Qd6 37.Rf1 Ne4 38.Nxe4 dxe4 39.Qa5 e3 40.Rg1 e2
    41.Rde1 Qxd4 42.Nf3 Qf4 43.Qxa4 Qxa4 0-1
  8. 31 Jul '07 10:51
    [Event "Malaga op 8th"]
    [Site "Campillos"]
    [Date "2005.02.19"]
    [Round "1"]
    [White "Korneev,Oleg"]
    [Black "Milla de Marco,Carlos"]
    [WhiteELO "2602"]
    [BlackELO "2092"]
    [Result "0-1"]
    [Eco "C41"]
    1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nf3 exd4 5.Nxd4 Be7 6.Bf4 0-0 7.Qd2 d5 8.Ndb5 c6
    9.Nc7 d4 10.Nxa8 dxc3 11.Qxd8 Rxd8 12.bxc3 Nxe4 13.Bxb8 Bf6 14.Bd3 Bxc3+ 15.Ke2 Bf5 16.Bc7 Re8
    17.Rac1 Nd2+ 18.Kd1 Bg4+ 19.f3 Nxf3 20.Be2 Ng1 21.Rb1 Rxe2 0-1

    Easy win indeed.. for black
  9. 31 Jul '07 14:50
    Originally posted by Korch
    Are you sure? Philidor is not so popular, but I advice you to read discussion about soundness and popularity in Thread 70577.
    Hello Korch.
    I've used the Philidor myself on occasion, I have Bauer's book THE PHILIDOR FILES, and even did some extensive experimentation of trying to enter the Hanham Variation through a backdoor via ...d6, ...Nf6, ...Nbd7, and then ...e5, so I'm not a Philidor-Hater or anything. But when was the last time you saw a Phildor used in a World Championship Match, or used as a main defense in the repertoire of a top-twenty player ( I stress the word "main" here)? Do you think the Philidor gives Black as much opportunity for sound play with chances to win as the Najdorf? As the Ruy Lopez? I sure don't; I can't put the Phildor in the category of Najdorf-good or Ruy-good. Every opening is playable, especially at club level, and the energy of inventive players such as Morozevich and Adams shows us that black-sheep openings such as the Chigorin and Philidor can even be given a whirl at the very top once in a while.

    As to some of your quoted games:

    Leko-Svidler was a rapid game, and not too testing theoretically.

    Vargot-Bacrot and Gouliev-Bacrot see Bacrot wheeling out the Philidor against weaker players (Gouliev is only 2238 and Vargot isn't titled).

    Dreev-Azmaiparashvili ... Dreev was leading throughout the game, missed 21.Bd3 and then blundered 27.Bxe5?? so this game isn't a very good endorsement for Black's chances.

    Polgar-Morozevich: Morozevich was under pressure throughout and should have lost the game after 29.Rad1. The opening was not favorable for the second player.

    I'd certainly say the Philidor is playable, but I wouldn't say it is theoretically as good as double king-pawn defences, or the Sicilian, or the Caro-Kann.

    (btw, the phrase "Today's experiment....failed" is a running gag from a television show.)

    --
  10. 31 Jul '07 16:20
    Originally posted by Doctor Rat
    The Philidor may be a practical choice against certain opponents when used sparingly, but no top GMs use it as part of their regular repertoire. The Philidor is just a bit too passive and it gives White the opportunity to play for a win with little chance for losing. Some GM names are sometimes mentioned as being practitioners of the Philidor, but that's ...[text shortened]... able option, but the current GM consensus is: Today's Phildor experiment....FAILED.

    --
    What's a "top GM" to you? 2700+ rating? Ever heard of Nisipeanu?

    Apart from Bacrot and Nisipeanu, other players with around 2500-2600 rating who regularly apply the philidor:

    Borki Predojevic (2628), Dusko Pavasovic (2584), Daniel Fridman (2628), Vladislav Nevednichy (2523), Gennadi Kuzmin (2472), Marko Tratar (2491), Dusan Popovic (2551), Slim Belkhodja (2478)

    I'm quite sure there are more, can't think of any others right now though.
  11. Standard member Korch
    Chess Warrior
    31 Jul '07 16:53
    Originally posted by Doctor Rat
    But when was the last time you saw a Phildor used in a World Championship Match, or used as a main defense in the repertoire of a top-twenty player ( I stress the word "main" here)? Do you think the Philidor gives Black as much opportunity for sound play with chances to win as the Najdorf? As the Ruy Lopez? I sure don't; I can't put the Phildor in the category of Najdorf-good or Ruy-good.
    About lack of popularity as argument of unsoundness - have you read discussion in Thread 70577 ?
    In my opinion Philidor gives Black solid play like in classic Queens gambit lines. It does not give so active play as Najdorf for example, but it`s much safer.
  12. Standard member Korch
    Chess Warrior
    31 Jul '07 17:40 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by Doctor Rat
    Hello Korch.
    As to some of your quoted games:

    Leko-Svidler was a rapid game, and not too testing theoretically.

    Vargot-Bacrot and Gouliev-Bacrot see Bacrot wheeling out the Philidor against weaker players (Gouliev is only 2238 and Vargot isn't titled).

    Dreev-Azmaiparashvili ... Dreev was leading throughout the game, missed 21.Bd3 and then blun he phrase "Today's experiment....failed" is a running gag from a television show.)

    --
    Leko-Svidler was a rapid game, and not too testing theoretically

    It was rapid game played bewtveen to top GMs in tournament with serious prizes. So I dont believe that Svidler would play bad opening. In that game black equalised in opening and got serious advantage after 13.Bf5? g5!.

    Vargot-Bacrot and Gouliev-Bacrot see Bacrot wheeling out the Philidor against weaker players (Gouliev is only 2238 and Vargot isn't titled).

    Did you mean these 2 games?

    [Event "Mainz Ordix op"]
    [Site "Mainz"]
    [Date "2004.08.05"]
    [Round "5"]
    [White "Varga,Zoltan"]
    [Black "Bacrot,Etienne"]
    [Result "0-1"]
    [Eco "C41"]
    1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Be7 6.Bf4 0-0 7.Qd2 d5 8.Ndb5 c6
    9.Nc7 d4 10.Ne2 g5 11.Nxa8 gxf4 12.Qxf4 Na6 13.0-0-0 c5 14.Ng3 Ng4 15.Kb1 Bd6 16.Qf3 Ne5
    17.Qf4 Ng6 18.Qf3 Ne5 19.Qf4 Qe7 20.Nf5 Bxf5 21.exf5 Rxa8 22.f6 Qf8 23.Qe4 Nb4 24.g4 Nbc6
    25.h4 Qh6 26.g5 Qg6 27.Bg2 Qxe4 28.Bxe4 Rd8 29.f3 Nc4 30.h5 Bf4 31.Rhg1 Nd2+ 32.Ka1 Nxe4
    33.fxe4 Ne5 34.Rdf1 Be3 35.Rg2 c4 36.Rf5 Re8 37.b3 d3 38.bxc4 d2 39.Rf1 Nxc4 40.c3 Rd8
    41.Rd1 Ne5 42.Kb1 Nf3 43.g6 Ne1 44.gxh7+ Kxh7 45.Rg7+ Kh6 46.Rxf7 Nd3 47.Rxb7 Nf2 48.Kc2 Nxd1
    49.Kxd1 Rg8 50.Ke2 Rg2+ 0-1

    [Event "FRA-chT Top 16 GpA"]
    [Site "Mulhouse"]
    [Date "2005.02.04"]
    [Round "2"]
    [White "Gouliev,Namig"]
    [Black "Bacrot,Etienne"]
    [Result "1/2"]
    [Eco "C41"]
    1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 exd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 Be7 6.Be2 0-0 7.0-0 Re8 8.Re1 Bf8
    9.Bf1 Nbd7 10.g3 Ne5 11.Bg2 Bg4 12.f3 c5 13.Nf5 Bxf5 14.exf5 d5 15.Bf4 Qd6 16.Rxe5 Rxe5
    17.Bxe5 Qxe5 18.f4 Qxf5 19.Nxd5 c4 20.Qd4 Nxd5 21.Bxd5 Qxc2 22.Bxf7+ Kxf7 23.Qd5+ Kf6 24.Qe5+
    1/2

    Against Varga Bacrot equalised in opening got advatnage in middle game and finished his opponent in endgame.

    Against Goliev Bacrot had no problems in opening - Simply he did choose wrong line to play for win.

    Dreev-Azmaiparashvili ... Dreev was leading throughout the game, missed 21.Bd3 and then blundered 27.Bxe5?? so this game isn't a very good endorsement for Black's chances.

    Black was not obliged to play 11...c5?! - with 11...b5 black could reach equal position. Also after 21.Bd3 white had slightly better position but nothing decisive.

    Polgar-Morozevich: Morozevich was under pressure throughout and should have lost the game after 29.Rad1. The opening was not favorable for the second player.

    Black did equalise in opening, but then played not too well (16...Nxb3?! {instead of 16...Kh8 for example} 18...f6?! {instead of 18...Qe6} 19....Nc8? {instead of 19...Ra8} )
  13. 31 Jul '07 18:07
    by the way, I asked for this, so we've got a philidor thematic tournament: Tournament 2407
  14. Standard member Korch
    Chess Warrior
    31 Jul '07 18:42
    Originally posted by schakuhr
    by the way, I asked for this, so we've got a philidor thematic tournament: Tournament 2407
    Unfortunately i have too many tournaments at the moment, but I` already playing in Tournament 1814
  15. 31 Jul '07 20:39 / 2 edits
    Yes, I would consider 2700+ or at least in the top-twenty of FIDE ratings to be a top GM.

    Nispy's last four games with the Philidor (according to chessgames.com) is one game in 2006, and three games in 2004. I disagree that so few games would be considered as being "regularly" played, and I stand by my statement that no top GM uses the Philidor as his main repertoire choice against 1.e4.

    I am not arguing that the Philidor isn't playable. I'm not arguing that no one plays the Philidor. I am saying that on whatever scale we use, where there are "bad" openings, "average" openings, and "good" openings, I am saying that the Philidor does not rank up there with the "good" openings to 1.e4 such as the Sicilian, the Caro-Kann, and the double king-pawn games. It's always a case of splitting hairs when saying which openings are "good", "average", and "bad", but I just can't see the Philidor as having the same dynamic chances as the above. I am not saying the Philidor is a steamy pile of dog doo in a flaming paper bag. I am not a Philidor hater. But I would say the line has to be drawn somewhere. I would put the Phildor in "average" and playable.

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