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  1. Standard member DoctorScribbles
    BWA Soldier
    02 Oct '06 19:39
    To all of you people who have been using your scoresheet as an analysis aid, writing your move to fix one ply as you search the next...

    http://beta.uschess.org/frontend/news_7_127.php
  2. Subscriber huckleberryhound
    Devout Agnostic.
    02 Oct '06 19:48
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    To all of you people who have been using your scoresheet as an analysis aid, writing your move to fix one ply as you search the next...

    http://beta.uschess.org/frontend/news_7_127.php
    sounds about right, if i had a electronic score sheet, i would find it hard NOT to use it as an analysis aid.
  3. Standard member Wulebgr
    Angler
    02 Oct '06 20:18
    Another bad idea from FIDE infecting the rest of the chess world.

    There are precious few things that Americans get right. We ought to stick to these with more resolve.
  4. Standard member DoctorScribbles
    BWA Soldier
    02 Oct '06 20:25
    Originally posted by Wulebgr
    Another bad idea from FIDE infecting the rest of the chess world.

    There are precious few things that Americans get right. We ought to stick to these with more resolve.
    Do you really think the new rule is bad? I think it's excellent.
  5. Standard member Wulebgr
    Angler
    02 Oct '06 21:52
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    Do you really think the new rule is bad? I think it's excellent.
    Yes, it is bad. The FIDE rule it is based upon is also bad.

    Of course, writing in advance of moving on an electronic scoresheet could become a problem. But, writing the move first on a paper sheet is a good practice for reducing impetuousness. I teach it to scholastic players, and I practice it myself.

    Read the text at the link you provided, and you'll see many others that agree with me.
  6. 02 Oct '06 22:45
    Originally posted by Wulebgr
    writing the move first on a paper sheet is a good practice for reducing impetuousness.
    So it's acting as an aid, which should not be allowed.
  7. Standard member DoctorScribbles
    BWA Soldier
    02 Oct '06 22:47 / 25 edits
    Originally posted by Varenka
    So it's acting as an aid, which should not be allowed.
    Exactly. It is explictly forbidden elsewhere in the rules to use the scoresheet as an aid for analysis. It is intended to be used solely as a record of the game. Once a player writes a mere candidate down for consideration, he is abusing the scoresheet.

    Wulebgr, if it reduced your students' impetuousness to write down a 4-ply PV prior to each move, would you think the rules should allow that? How about a 2-ply PV? If not, why should a 1-ply PV be acceptable? You are just teaching your students to exploit a loophole -- one that exploits the fact that candidates have the same written representation as actual moves and can thus masquerade while the player is still analyzing them, and one that has now wisely been closed.

    Note that I would not have a problem with writing the move prior to making it if the written move were binding. My beef with the old rule is that players were allowed to scratch it out and change it after evaluating the resulting position -- multiple times even, cycling through a list of candidates -- which constitutes analysis in my book, and in which as you even admit, the scoresheet is being used to help. Candidate moves have no place on the scoresheet -- since you can only move once per turn, and since the scoresheet is intended to be solely a record of the game and not a scratchpad for ideas, it only makes sense that you should write one move per turn. Aside from transcription errors, how can you justify writing two or more moves per turn when the scoresheet is supposed to be a record of the game?

    So far, you have not given any reasons why the rule is bad. The only reason you cite for the former way being good is that using the scoresheet in that manner helps you and your students play better (and what you really mean is that it helps you spot blunders that you wouldn't have otherwise, moving without seeing the written move)! But if that's a justifying reason, then a sideboard for analysis on which a player could make one-ply moves from the current position should be allowed as well, since that would also help you play better and reduce one-ply blunders in the very same manner. But if you think that is an unfair aid, you must also find that doing it symbolicallly on a scoresheet is as well. You can't have it both ways.
  8. 02 Oct '06 23:29
    I dont have any trouble with people writing their moves down before they touch the piece since I dont believe looking a single ply deep in chess is analysis.

    I do write my move down before playing it, its nothing to do with analysis just part of a system. Basicly I will analyze the position, find the move, write it down, then a very basic scan of the board after writing it down, then move. You might ask why not do a basic scan before writing the move down, well I find its good to get away from the analysis even if its for only 2-3 seconds while you jot down the move and then look at the board anew for 4-5 seconds before moving.

    I maybe only change one in 100 moves, this change isnt from using the score card as analysis (as I said I dont think looking half a move deep counts as analysis) but just picking up something basic from looking at the board fresh.
  9. Standard member DoctorScribbles
    BWA Soldier
    02 Oct '06 23:30 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Bedlam
    I dont have any trouble with people writing their moves down before they touch the piece since I dont believe looking a single ply deep in chess is analysis.
    So, you wouldn't mind if each player had a sideboard for moving the pieces one ply ahead?
  10. Standard member DoctorScribbles
    BWA Soldier
    02 Oct '06 23:32 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Bedlam

    I find its good to get away from the analysis even if its for only 2-3 seconds while you jot down the move and then look at the board anew for 4-5 seconds before moving.
    You could close your eyes for 2-3 seconds instead.
  11. 02 Oct '06 23:36
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    So, you wouldn't mind if each player had a sideboard for moving the pieces one ply ahead?
    I dont think paper score sheets count as moving one move head. The USCF rule should distinguish between paper score sheets and ones with a visual board.

    Hm in regard to a player having a board and being allowed to move the pieces one ply ahead then looking at the position......it might help lower rated players avoid blunders but the higher you go the more of a hinderanceit would become......why bother to spend time looking one ply ahead on a electronic board when you can flow through 5 moves ahead in under a second in your mind.
  12. 02 Oct '06 23:37 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
    You could close your eyes for 2-3 seconds instead.
    True, but that wastes 2-3 seconds....where as the move has to be wrote down anyway.

    Also closing eyes isnt really a break from analysis, it would still be going. Where as writing the move down is a definite break from analysis, at least for me.
  13. 02 Oct '06 23:37
    When I started playing in tmts. over 40 years ago there was no rule about when to write down a move (that I know of), and I'd say 99% of the players wrote it down first, then played it. I haven't played OTB for over 15 years, and I can't believe it's now considered "analysis." Somebody please explain how this method of "analysis" helps. If you're so bad, you can't remember 3 or 4 candidate moves, you're probably not going to be able to calculate more than half a move ahead anyway!
  14. Standard member DoctorScribbles
    BWA Soldier
    02 Oct '06 23:38
    Originally posted by Bedlam

    I maybe only change one in 100 moves, this change isnt from using the score card as analysis (as I said I dont think looking half a move deep counts as analysis) but just picking up something basic from looking at the board fresh.
    How can you justify writing more than one move per turn when the scoresheet is intended to be used solely as a record of the game?

    If you're changing any moves, even 1 in 1,000, for reasons other than transcription errors, what you are really writing on the scoresheet are candidates, which are not supposed to be part of the game record.
  15. Standard member DoctorScribbles
    BWA Soldier
    02 Oct '06 23:42 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Bedlam

    Where as writing the move down is a definite break from analysis, at least for me.
    Then you are using the scoresheet as an aid, which is explicitly forbidden elsewhere. The scoresheet is not there to help you play in any manner, even if it is not helping your analysis.