03 Oct 06
1 edit
Originally posted by WulebgrHow exactly does the practice of writing down a move AFTER you have completed it cause an inaccurate record? I would suspect the opposite is true and that players who write their moves down first are more likely to forget to change them if they then make a different move.
Wrong.
Please see above:
Originally posted by Wulebgr
[b/]Many players, myself included play far more non-tournament games than we do tournament. Thus, the recording of moves can be a distraction, and moves are sometimes left off the scoresheet. I've seen many game records in which half-way through the game, the moves in the white column are cle s, as already noted, without adding anything of benefit to the current rule change before us.
03 Oct 06
Originally posted by no1marauderIt doesn't.
How exactly does the practice of writing down a move AFTER you have completed it cause an inaccurate record?
Inattentiveness causes the inaccuracy; systematic behavior corrects the inattentiveness. The rule change soon to go into effect does not prevent systematic behavior, but it does regulate which systems are permissible to a more limited extent than before.
In some cases, a player will move instantly after the opponent, even when plenty of time remains on the clock. In my experience, these are sometimes the moves that get left off the scoresheet
03 Oct 06
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesI was a C player for ten years. Near the end of that time, I started habitually writing the move first. Since then, I have had fewer missing moves (incomplete scoresheets).
Do an experiment next time you're at a tournament.
Stroll through the Class C or D section.
Observe several messy scoresheets and attempt to predict whether the player writes or moves first.
Observe several clean scoresheets and attempt to predict whether the player writes or moves first.
I predict based on my own observations that ther ...[text shortened]... doubt you could separate them into move-first/write-first piles with greater than 50% accuracy.
My handwriting has always been neat, although I have consciously sought to render it less so since finishing graduate school. 😉
Accuracy and neatness are separate issues, although both are addressed in Rule 15A.
03 Oct 06
3 edits
Originally posted by WulebgrHow about this for an alternative system, which provides every benefit that you claim you are getting from the old system.
It doesn't.
Inattentiveness causes the inaccuracy; systematic behavior corrects the inattentiveness. The rule change soon to go into effect does not prevent systematic behavior, but it does regulate which systems are permissible to a more limited extent than before.
In some cases, a player will move instantly after the opponent, even when plenty of ti ...[text shortened]... on the clock. In my experience, these are sometimes the moves that get left off the scoresheet
Instead of writing your opponent's move immediately after he makes it, wait until you are ready to make yours. Then, write his last move, do a blunder check, and make your move and then write it.
Isn't that equivalent to your old method, with respect to systematically keeping score and keeping yourself from moving immediately?
03 Oct 06
Originally posted by VarenkaIt is hard to see how writing the move one is about to play aids the memory.
So it's acting as an aid, which should not be allowed.
USCF Rule 20C. Use of notes prohibited. The use of notes made during the game as an aid to memory is forbidden, aside from the actual recording of moves, draw offers and clock times, and the header information normally found on a scoresheet.
Read carefully the entire thread, and it becomes clear that Dr. S. advocates scratching the words "to memory."
03 Oct 06
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesI'll report back after I try to teach that one to a group of third graders, but I'm not optimistic.
How about this for an alternative system, which provides every benefit that you claim you are getting from the old system.
Instead of writing your opponent's move immediately after he makes it, wait until you are ready to make yours. Then, write his last move, do a blunder check, and make your move and then write it.
Isn't that equivalent to y ...[text shortened]... od, with respect to systematically keeping score and keeping yourself from moving immediately?
03 Oct 06
8 edits
Originally posted by WulebgrNo I don't. That is the very clause I want to enforce!
Read carefully the entire thread, and it becomes clear that Dr. S. advocates scratching the words "to memory."
I made it perfectly clear that if the written move were binding, I would have no problem with the old rule. I made it perfectly clear that it is the changing and writing a second move that I take issue with.
My problem is that the candidate can be scratched out or erased if the player changed his mind. Both of these constitute using the scoresheet as a memory, as scratching out or erasing still leaves a record of what move had been written, considered and discarded. Look over any of your kids' sheets where they've changed a move and tell me I'm wrong. If you can still see it the next day, the sheet is serving as a memory. And even in cases where you can't see the old move, the very act of writing it aids in memory - it's harder to forget that you've rejected a candidate after having written and scratched it out than if you had never written it at all.
Further, you know well that there are other rules prohibiting other sorts of non-memory aids, such as seeking advice from another person. Using the scoresheet as a crutch for correcting inattention falls in this sort of category, just like prohibiting a father from coming over and saying "Pay attention!" to his kid.
03 Oct 06
Originally posted by WulebgrPlease. The point is writing the move down first is an aid to memory; it is ID'ing your no1 candidate move while still surveying the board.
It is hard to see how writing the move one is about to play aids the memory.
USCF Rule 20C. [b]Use of notes prohibited. The use of notes made during the game as an aid to memory is forbidden, aside from the actual recording of moves, draw offers and clock times, and the header information normally found on a scoresheet.
Read carefully the entire thread, and it becomes clear that Dr. S. advocates scratching the words "to memory."[/b]
03 Oct 06
Originally posted by no1marauderExcept:
I prefer the new USCF rule. Logically, the scoresheet is a record of moves made and the move is not complete before the clock is hit. One doesn't put a run up on the scoreboard before the ball goes over the fence for a home run in baseball or goes into the goal in soccer.
9.2
The game is drawn, upon a correct claim by the player having the move, when the same position, for at least the third time (not necessarily by a repetition of moves)
1. is about to appear, if he first writes his move on his scoresheet and declares to the arbiter his intention to make this move, or
....
9.3
The game is drawn, upon a correct claim by the player having the move, if:
1. he writes his move on his scoresheet, and declares to the arbiter his intention to make this move which shall result in the last 50 moves having been made by each player without the movement of any pawn and without any capture,
03 Oct 06
Originally posted by XanthosNZObviously these are just cases to alert the arbiter to immediately declare the draw rather than have the other player erroneously make a move.
Except:
9.2
The game is drawn, upon a correct claim by the player having the move, when the same position, for at least the third time (not necessarily by a repetition of moves)
1. is about to appear, if he first writes his move on his scoresheet and declares to the arbiter his intention to make this move, or
....
9.3
The game is drawn, upon a ...[text shortened]... moves having been made by each player without the movement of any pawn and without any capture,
03 Oct 06
3 edits
Originally posted by XanthosNZAnd in those cases, the written move is binding once it is shown to the director. You can't back out of a draw by repetition after making the claim if you spot a win at the last second. They truly are a record of the game and not merely candidates, when carried out according to the cited rules.
Except:
9.2
The game is drawn, upon a correct claim by the player having the move, when the same position, for at least the third time (not necessarily by a repetition of moves)
1. is about to appear, if he first writes his move on his scoresheet and declares to the arbiter his intention to make this move, or
....
9.3
The game is drawn, upon a ...[text shortened]... moves having been made by each player without the movement of any pawn and without any capture,
03 Oct 06
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesI agree. I think that the rule should be the one I mentioned seeing enforced earlier [that is, that you can write your move whenever you want but it's enforced just like touchmove].
And in those cases, the written move is binding once it is shown to the director. You can't back out of a draw by repetition after making the claim if you spot a win at the last second. They truly are a record of the game and not merely candidates, when carried out according to the cited rules.