Those of you with long memories may recall that in Thread 51562 I agreed to play 2 games against User 186879 with this opening.
They are now completed and what a surprise.
Game 2476497 and Game 2513067
OK I did win them both and I know there will be those that say it was not a fair match with a 500 point rating difference but thats not the point. The point is I expected an easy game because I thought Qh4+ was a useless move and because I was rated much higher than my opponent. The truth is they were anything but easy.
In Game 2476497 I followed line recommended by Korchnoi and almost lost. I certainly did not come out of the opening ahead and we were still in my book. There may have been inaccuracies in the middle game but I was eventually forced to give up my Rook to stop him queening and eventually ended up K & Q vs K & R. I think had I not had a book on this type of ending I would not have won it although in the end a blunder made it easier.
Game 2513067 followed a suggestion by other members of the K G clan and although it looks convincing there were a number of errors by both players and it could have been a lot worse for me.
In conclusion Qh4+ is not as dreadful as I expected. I will study it more but against an unprepared opponent it could produce surprising results.
9.Bxc6 can't be right in game Game 2476497. You're just too weak on the kingside white squares to lose that bishop, although perhaps it's not so importantwhen the queens are off.
I used to play 2...Qh4+ myself and had very mediocre results with it, eventually switching to the far superior 2...d6!
Originally posted by Fat Lady2. Bg5 is better and 2.d6 sucks. White can't immediately capture fxe5 anyways because of Qh4+...
9.Bxc6 can't be right in game Game 2476497. You're just too weak on the kingside white squares to lose that bishop, although perhaps it's not so importantwhen the queens are off.
I used to play 2...Qh4+ myself and had very mediocre results with it, eventually switching to the far superior 2...d6!
I play the Fischer Defense as Black vs the KG
Originally posted by Fat LadyI have an outstanding record against 2...d6 on here, I forget the exact stats, but I am undefeated against it. The most challenging response is to accept the gambit.
I used to play 2...d6 with the idea of transposing to the Fischer Defence. The advantage of this move order was that every now and then a weak player would play 3.fxe5??
Originally posted by cmsMasterI'll agree that the most challenging way to fight the KG is the accept it
I have an outstanding record against 2...d6 on here, I forget the exact stats, but I am undefeated against it. The most challenging response is to accept the gambit.
2. ...d6 isn't the greatest move, but I suppose that yes, after 3. Nf3 exf4 it does transpose back to the Fischer Defense...
Originally posted by YUG0slavAt the moment I am undefeated against the Fisher Defense.
I'll agree that the most challenging way to fight the KG is the accept it
2. ...d6 isn't the greatest move, but I suppose that yes, after 3. Nf3 exf4 it does transpose back to the Fischer Defense...
I agree, and perceived thinking (by GMs) is, that the gambit should be accepted (unlike the QG which is apparently best declined), and am getting results here (as white) that I would not expect OTB (I suspect because the access to books is helping me avoid mistakes in this sharp opening).
The point is, is Qh4+ any good. I though it must be absolute crap but as you can see I struggled against a weaker player. Certainly we can all sit down and pull those games to pieces (in fact anyone who plays the KG needs to find improvements) so we are not surprised by such a crap move in future.
2...Qh4+ is a weak line for black, after 3.g3 the queens gona either move to f6 or e7 which are both terrible for black, white has a significant spacial advantage and blacks Queen will ubstruct his own development. Considered += at GM level, i personally prefer the simple 2...exf4 and have played it quite a bit at tournament games with good results.
Originally posted by spellforce3. ... Qf6 is terrible. I have slaughtered black every time they play this but as these 2 games show against a weaker player (playing black) 3. ... Qe7 is not as easy as I would have thought at first sight. We all agree that 2. ... Qh4+ is terrible but refuting it is difficult
2...Qh4+ is a weak line for black, after 3.g6 the queens gona either move to f6 or e7 which are both terrible for black, white has a significant spacial advantage and blacks Queen will ubstruct his own development. Considered += at GM level, i personally prefer the simple 2...exf4 and have played it quite a bit at tournament games with good results.
My Kings Gambit book by Korchnoi and Zak is an old one and has Qh4+ as the last line in the KGD devoting just a single page. It is known as "The Keene Variation"
It is Keene who initially suggested 3. ... Qe7 after which there are the following options for white
4. fXe;
4. Nc3;
4. d3;
4. Qe2.
At the time of writing (the book) there were only 6 GM games with this 3rd move with the results being W won 1 drew 1; B won 4 drew 1.
The results were
4. fXe .. white won 1 black won 2
4. Nc3 .. 1 draw, black won 1
4. d3 .. black won 1
4. Qe2 untried (suggestion by Basman).
No doubt it has subsequently been played more and refutations found by white but after playing these 2 games I am convinced that Qh4+ has its place in avoiding many of the complications of the KGA and could easily catch out an unwary white.
Originally posted by Dragon FireI think 4.d3 and 4.Nc3 are white's best options. 4.d3 seems to be the number one choice and I think white gets a good game following it.
My Kings Gambit book by Korchnoi and Zak is an old one and has Qh4+ as the last line in the KGD devoting just a single page. It is known as "The Keene Variation"
It is Keene who initially suggested 3. ... Qe7 after which there are the following options for white
4. fXe;
4. Nc3;
4. d3;
4. Qe2.
At the time of writing (the book) there were only 6 ...[text shortened]... e in avoiding many of the complications of the KGA and could easily catch out an unwary white.
Originally posted by cmsMaster4. d3 was played in Game 2513067 which was quite decisive although I think probably riddled with errors.
I think 4.d3 and 4.Nc3 are white's best options. 4.d3 seems to be the number one choice and I think white gets a good game following it.
Originally posted by Dragon FireI just ran through it real quick, here are a couple of ideas that I thought about....
4. d3 was played in Game 2513067 which was quite decisive although I think probably riddled with errors.
[Event "Challenge"]
[Site "http://www.playtheimmortalgame"]
[Date "2006.09.18"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Dragon Fire"]
[Black "ChessJester"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Annotator "Fritz 9 (3s)"]
[PlyCount "69"]
[EventDate "2006.??.??"]
{C30: King's Gambit Declined} 1. e4 e5 2. f4 Qh4+ 3. g3 Qe7 {last book move} 4.
d3 d5 5. Nc3 dxe4 6. dxe4 {Black king safety dropped.} Nf6 7. Bg2 Nc6 8. Nf3
Bg4 9. O-O Qc5+ 10. Kh1 Bd6 11. f5 {White gets more space} (11. Nd5 O-O-O (
11... Nxe4 12. Be3 Qb5 13. fxe5 Nxe5 14. a4 $16) 12. Be3 Qb5 13. Nxf6 gxf6 $15)
11... O-O-O $17 12. Qe1 Nd4 13. Be3 Qb4 (13... Bxf3 14. Bxf3 h5 15. Rf2 $17)
14. a3 Qb6 (14... Qc4 15. Nd2 Qa6 16. Rc1 $17) 15. Qf2 $15 Qxb2 16. Nxd4 Qxc3 (
{Less advisable is} 16... exd4 17. Bxd4 Bc5 18. Bxc5 Qxc3 19. Be7 $18) 17. Nb5
{White threatens to win material: Nb5xc3} Qc4 {
Black threatens to win material: Qc4xb5} 18. Nxa7+ Kb8 19. Rab1 Nxe4 (19... h5
$142 $5 20. Nb5 Be7 $17 (20... Nxe4 {is the less attractive alternative} 21.
Ba7+ Ka8 22. Qe1 $18)) 20. Qe1 $11 Rd7 $4 (20... Be2 $142 {is the best chance}
21. Nc6+ {Deflection: c6} Kc8 22. Nxd8 Rxd8 $11) 21. Qa5 $18 c6 22. Nc8 Qd5 (
22... Bf3 23. Bxf3 Bc5 $18) 23. Qa4 Bxf5 (23... Bh3 {no good, but what else?}
24. Bxe4 Qxe4+ 25. Qxe4 Rxc8 $18) 24. Nb6 Qe6 25. Nxd7+ (25. Qa8+ Kc7 26. Nd5+
cxd5 27. Rxb7+ Kc6 28. Qa6🙄 25... Qxd7 26. Qa7+ Kc8 27. Qa8+ Bb8 28. Ba7 Qc7
29. Rxf5 Nd6 30. Rxe5 (30. Bh3 Nxf5 31. Bxf5+ Kd8 32. Bc5 g6 33. Rd1+ Ke8 34.
Rd7 Qc8 35. Re7+ Kf8 36. Bxc8 Bd6 37. Bxd6 Kg7 38. Rxf7+ Kh6 39. Qa4 g5 40. Qe4
g4 41. Qxg4 Rg8 42. Rf6+ Rg6 43. Bf8🙄 30... b5 31. Bxb8 (31. Rc5 $142 {
and White can already relax} b4 32. Rxc6 Kd7 33. Rxc7+ Bxc7 34. Bc6+ Ke7 35.
Re1+ Kf6 36. Bd4+ Kg6 37. Qxh8 Nf5 38. Be4 Kh6 39. Bxg7+ Kg5 40. Bf6+ Kg4 41.
Qg8+ Ng7 42. Qxg7+ Kh3 43. Bf5🙄 31... Qxb8 32. Qxc6+ Qc7 33. Qxc7+ (33. Qa6+
Kd7 34. Bh3+ f5 35. Bxf5+ Nxf5 36. Qe6+ Kd8 37. Rd1+ Nd6 38. Rxd6+ Qxd6 39.
Qxd6+ Kc8 40. Rxb5 Re8 41. Rb8🙄 33... Kxc7 $18 34. Rc5+ (34. Rd1 {
might be the shorter path} Rd8 $18) 34... Kd8 (34... Kd7 {
does not solve anything} 35. Rd5 Rd8 36. Rbxb5 $18) 35. Rd1 (35. Rd1 Ke7 36.
Rc7+ Ke6 37. Bd5+ Kf6 38. Rd7 $18) (35. Rc6 {makes it even easier for White}
Nf5 36. Rxb5 Re8 37. Rd5+ Ke7 38. Rxf5 Kf8 $18) 1-0
😀 Use a GUI to get rid of the annoying dollar signs and see the position values that Fritz, I mean I, gave.
Originally posted by Dragon FireDo any of those games involve black playing 4. ...Bg4? or for that matter, ever playing Bg4? (though without the ? in some rare cases I suppose...)
At the moment I am undefeated against the Fisher Defense.
cuz if they did, they probably didn't really know what they were doing...
note: in most cases of the KGA, Bg4 is a pathetically weak move, despite how natural it may look.