01 Jan 09
I know that you are not supposed to use an engine on any games in progress. However, what if you know you are going to play a certain player who always plays a certian opening, and before playing him, you analyse that opening in detail?
For example, what if you know a certain player always plays a certain variant of the Sicilian Najdorf. Before playing him, you analyse that line deeply, perhaps from where it leaves book.
Is this legal? I'm not sure what my opinion is, but theoreticaly, you could do the same thing OTB, and in higher level tournaments this happens quite a lot.
01 Jan 09
Originally posted by clandarkfireFew players on this site are theoretically savvy, but to answer your question, yes.
I know that you are not supposed to use an engine on any games in progress. However, what if you know you are going to play a certain player who always plays a certian opening, and before playing him, you analyse that opening in detail?
For example, what if you know a certain player always plays a certain variant of the Sicilian Najdorf. Before play ...[text shortened]... aly, you could do the same thing OTB, and in higher level tournaments this happens quite a lot.
Engines are not particularly effectual agents in their evaluation of opening positions and do not convey understanding of opening theory.
Better I think would be to use an opening database and understand the progress of theory to its current stage.
Consider your chess ambitions and understanding in contemplating whether you find specific opening studies worthwhile.
Fischer reportedly used 10 hours analyzing the variation in the following game according to Tal's Life and Games. Evidently his efforts may have been somewhat futile.
Tal-Fischer 1959
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1044505
01 Jan 09
Originally posted by clandarkfireBefore the game it is perfectly legal to use engines to help you study openings or anything else. However, as Yuga has pointed out, an engine is not the best tool available to you. During the game it is OK to use opening books and databases, both of which are more useful than engines (which are definitely not allowed once the game has started!).
I know that you are not supposed to use an engine on any games in progress. However, what if you know you are going to play a certain player who always plays a certian opening, and before playing him, you analyse that opening in detail?
For example, what if you know a certain player always plays a certain variant of the Sicilian Najdorf. Before play ...[text shortened]... aly, you could do the same thing OTB, and in higher level tournaments this happens quite a lot.
01 Jan 09
Originally posted by clandarkfireWe have had many debates on this before and the only safe way to ensure you remain within the TOS is to ensure all such analysis is done before the game starts whilst ensuring you have no other on going games that could reach the position you are analysing.
I know that you are not supposed to use an engine on any games in progress. However, what if you know you are going to play a certain player who always plays a certian opening, and before playing him, you analyse that opening in detail?
For example, what if you know a certain player always plays a certain variant of the Sicilian Najdorf. Before play ...[text shortened]... aly, you could do the same thing OTB, and in higher level tournaments this happens quite a lot.
In my opinion such analysis actually serves little purpose as you cannot possibly analyse every possible path an opening may follow and even if you reach the point of your analysis it is highly likely you will deviate from it within a couple of moves.
Anyone who claims otherwise (i.e. claims that their 10 move engine analysis followed exactly after leaving the DB was preprepared) is simply trying to use this as an excuse to cover in game engine analysis as such extended analysis is impossible (try to follow a DB exactly for 10 moves and you will soon see what I mean).
Far better to get a good DB and a few books and do extensive research there as you can legitimately do this whilst the game is in progress. The only thing I have learnt from bitter experience is to ensure you play your choosen line out and like the resultant end position. Also you need to take care if, for example, the top DB choice shows a success rate of 75% it may seem a good idea to follow it but when 3 moves in your opponent has 2 choices and whilst the one has been played 8 times losing 7 and drawing 1 whilst the other (a new innovation) has only been played twice winning both. Suddenly your choice doesn't seem that good.
The only time I have found engine analysis useful (and legitimate) is on my lost games in openings I play regularly. The engine can help identify the point I erred and find better lines. I then annotate my books and DB as these are positions I hope to reach again. In reality in over 1000 games I have achieved this no more than about 10 times and even then have been out of my previously prepared analysis within a few moves. Far better to spend your time on other things.
Most often if I lose an opening my DB gives me a better idea of alternative choices and I seek guidance there and so avoid the line totally.
01 Jan 09
1 edit
Originally posted by Dragon FireHappy New Year everyone.
We have had many debates on this before and the only safe way to ensure you remain within the TOS is to ensure all such analysis is done before the game starts whilst ensuring you have no other on going games that could reach the position you are analysing.
In my opinion such analysis actually serves little purpose as you cannot possibly analyse every e a better idea of alternative choices and I seek guidance there and so avoid the line totally.
DF, could you, plz, let us know what DB do you use? Is the one in ChessMaster GM edition good one to use?
06 Jan 09
2 edits
Originally posted by MathurineFrom the TOS : While a game is in progress you may not refer to chess engines, chess computers or be assisted by a third party. Endgame tablebases may not be consulted during play but you may reference books, databases consisting of previously played games between human players, and other pre-existing research materials.
Like this one...
[b]http://www.chessgames.com/perl/rerolpxe
¬[/b]
So any kind pre-game preparation should be allowed according to the TOS. Hovewer, I would hardly find motivation to prepare myself that seriously for a single match, ever 😛 Just think with your brain and if you lose, do a post-mortem 😛
06 Jan 09
Originally posted by GuychIt's small and access through CM is rather cumbersome. But, the games are well selected and it could be of some help. It's a place to start, but realize that your opponents are using databases that are far superior.
Happy New Year everyone.
DF, could you, plz, let us know what DB do you use? Is the one in ChessMaster GM edition good one to use?
The best selective database that is readily accessible to all is http://www.newinchess.com/NICBase/Default.aspx?PageID=400
06 Jan 09
Originally posted by clandarkfireLet's say you know they follow book moves to 15th move. Now you let the engine run.
I know that you are not supposed to use an engine on any games in progress. However, what if you know you are going to play a certain player who always plays a certian opening, and before playing him, you analyse that opening in detail?
For example, what if you know a certain player always plays a certain variant of the Sicilian Najdorf. Before play ...[text shortened]... aly, you could do the same thing OTB, and in higher level tournaments this happens quite a lot.
What are the chances you will find their next 2 moves? 3?
Probably slim.
Let's say you play that game, and you find 6 engine moves to match.
Chances are, you were using an engine while game was in progress.
Using the engine isn't going to help you much beyond finding 1 perhaps 2 new moves. Why bother. If your moves match beyond that, chances are you've decided to keep using the engine.... or they were using the same engine.
If you want to use the engine before the game, I suggest you message that line of moves to yourself so you could later say, "I had these moves before the game started".
Just some thoughts.
P-
06 Jan 09
If you are not using engines in your preparation, training, and post-game analysis, you are foolish or lying. If you are using them in your games, you are cheating.
If your game follows an engine line prepared "pregame" for 4-6 consecutive moves that are not forcing, the odds are very good that you and your opponent are both cheating. There will be a small number of rare exceptions.
06 Jan 09
Originally posted by clandarkfireIn my opinion this is legal. 😏
I know that you are not supposed to use an engine on any games in progress. However, what if you know you are going to play a certain player who always plays a certian opening, and before playing him, you analyse that opening in detail?
For example, what if you know a certain player always plays a certain variant of the Sicilian Najdorf. Before play ...[text shortened]... aly, you could do the same thing OTB, and in higher level tournaments this happens quite a lot.