Originally posted by KWCoronaI feel the same way, in fact, scholar's mate occurs in about 75% of my Yahoo games and it is seriously effecting my opening play for the worse. Granted, I do beat the Scholar's maters, but then when I get a higher rating and face better players, I get schooled in the opening and lose immediately, because I have no practice at convensional openings (just theory). So then my rating goes back down to 1400's again (was 1600, usually the threshold scholar's mate ends) and voila, I am dealing with scholar's mate again! This process has been repeating itself for about 8 months and it is geting very frustrating, because I cannot improve.
Well...my feeling about the subject is this. I want to learn to play chess well. If half the games I see start with such amateur openings, How can I ever expect to get better at difficult openings? Its just insulting to be thought of as not worth your best game from the outset. Thats all I am saying.
Not only does scholar's mate slow down any progress a chess player can accomplish by using it, it also slows down all the opponents who have to deal with it, which is simply not fair. While it may be hard to implement in real time games, I suggest RHP have a section called "Opening Sieges" or something like that, where a convensional opening is already set up and it's white on move. If you don't like the opening, just don't play that siege. It would be a welcome relief to all us bad players who want to learn, and don't want to see scholar's mate in 75% of our games.
Originally posted by KWCoronaIf you're so [chess] smart, why don't you just thrash everyone who plays it against you? Not only will your oponent learn not to use it again, but you will gain a better understanding of opening principles (what makes a good opening good) as well. Eventually you'll find opponents who play "standard" openings against you.
I will judge whoever I want. I don't have to be sensitive to anyone if I don't want to. Scholar's Mate preys on beginners and is a joke to anyone else. It may be perfectly legal, but it is a roadblock not only to the opponant that has to put up with defending it, but it also to the poor dolt who uses it thinking he/she is so smart, when in effect its the most remedial opening there is.
If you think I'm talking out of my hat, check this game - Game 673706. My opponent (who is ranked almost 250 points lower than me) ignores just about every opening principle (development first, castling etc.) and still manages checkmate! If ever I needed a lesson on how NOT to use opening principles (and not just opening moves) blindly - this was it. And I have learnt a lot from it.
A little humility goes a long way for learning.
Originally posted by mateuloseI think this idea is just silly. (I'm not picking on you personally mateulose -- others have expressed the same idea.) It's based on far too much emphasis on "openings."
Not only does scholar's mate slow down any progress a chess player can accomplish by using it, it also slows down all the opponents who have to deal with it, which is simply not fair.
Against anyone who tries this stupid scholar's mate, basic tactical ability should allow black to equalize. This is the same basic tactical ability that will allow one to survive long enough to learn the strategic reasons why one lost in a normal opening. 🙂
And learning takes time. Learning always takes time. You should have plenty of opportunity to play people who don't rely on Qh5. You can do so here. You can do so on the ICS. You can do so on FICS. You can do so on UChess.
I think that out of the roughly 500 games I've played on this site, I've had to face scholar's mate attempts, MAYBE 10 times. And I'm not rated 1600.
(Indeed, yahoo's ratings must be TRULY screwed up if scholars mate attempts only end at 1600. The solution to this really is to not play on yahoo. I only rarely play on yahoo, when I'm truly bored and the only games on offer on FICS are 3 minute games or such nonsense.)
Originally posted by KWCoronaSubscribe and enter thematic tournaments if you would like to learn new openings. Play more games and get established rating if you would like to meet stronger opponents. Post in the "Meet Opponents" forums section asking for game under specific conditions (i.e. "No Scholar's Mate"😀). Stop playing e5, Pirc or French are much better openings🙂 And take it easy.
Well...my feeling about the subject is this. I want to learn to play chess well. If half the games I see start with such amateur openings, How can I ever expect to get better at difficult openings? Its just insulting to be thought of as not worth your best game from the outset. Thats all I am saying.
Originally posted by paultopiaI couldn't agree more! (Gets my rec)
I think this idea is just silly. (I'm not picking on you personally mateulose -- others have expressed the same idea.) It's based on far too much emphasis on "openings."
Against anyone who tries this stupid scholar's mate, basic tactical ability should allow black to equalize. This is the same basic tactical ability that will allow one to surv ...[text shortened]... hen I'm truly bored and the only games on offer on FICS are 3 minute games or such nonsense.)
I think there's a fundamental difference between "playing the opening" and "playing the idea". If you're playing the opening, you're always disconcerted when your opponent moves out of "book moves" or "book principles". When "playing the idea", you'll probably end up making the book moves unconsciously - but you'll be better equipped to handle deviations.
Originally posted by TovMauzerPirc or French??!!
Subscribe and enter thematic tournaments if you would like to learn new openings. Play more games and get established rating if you would like to meet stronger opponents. Post in the "Meet Opponents" forums section asking for game under specific conditions (i.e. "No Scholar's Mate"😀). Stop playing e5, Pirc or French are much better openings🙂 And take it easy.
OK, I'm just kidding about the French. But the Pirc?? Why not play the Caro-Kann instead - you'll never lose.
Originally posted by paultopiaI've played 79 games on this site as black, and never had Scholar's mate attempted against me. I agree with Paultopia... to say that a large proportion of games use it seems absurd to me.
I think that out of the roughly 500 games I've played on this site, I've had to face scholar's mate attempts, MAYBE 10 times. And I'm not rated 1600.
In fact, I'd go further. Here's my patzer-opinion.
One does not need opening theory to survive ANY opening.
One does need tactics to survive ANY opening.
I don't care if my opponent plays the most difficult opening imaginable. Perhaps the sicilian najdorf. With sufficient tactical knowledge, I'm unlikely to come out of it with a dead lost position. A disadvantage? Sure. A significant disadvantage? Maybe. A total loss? No.
(I actually won a blitz game recently against a player, whose rating I don't know but who I suspect is better, who broke out the najdorf against me. I was down a couple of pawns, but I was in the midst of sacrificing a piece and jamming my rooks down the open file leading to his king for an unclear attack when he overstepped the time. I had one second left myself!)
Once one has the tactics down, then one can learn strategic principles. In the process of learning strategic principles, one will want to learn particular opening lines. For example, I'm currently studying lines in the dutch leningrad. I am doing so to aid my understanding of the strategic reasons why one might want to push e5 in certain positions, etc., and whether that will make my center more or less subject to attack in the future. This is not an "opening line" for its own sake. It's "here's a way to think about solving the problem of the fight in the center."
The scholar's mate opening is strategically bad. It loses a bunch of time and impairs one's development. Tactically, it's fine. (Compated, to, eg. 1. g4 2. f3). Other openings as white are strategically good. The Ruy Lopez comes to mind. Some openings might even be described as tactically bad but strategically good. (I tend to think of the King's Gambit that way. If I survive the tactics as white, I more often than not end up with a superior position, pawns in the center, open file for rooks, more space, etc.)
One can LEARN strategic principles which apply to all of chess from either, and apply them across the lines. It's slightly easier to trap the opponent and avoid traps yourself, as well as gain subtle strategic advantages, in known lines, but I'm not at that level, and anyone who has problems with the scholar's mate opening isn't either.
Knowing and practicing opening lines is one way to learn strategy. It isn't necessarily the only way.
Just my totally unqualified $0.02.
Originally posted by lucifershammerOk, I think you are making my point. I am not good enough to teach everyone else how not to play. I am here because I want to learn myself. Is that a crime? Tell you what, next idiot I get that tries scholars mate, I'll send them your way.
If you're so [chess] smart, why don't you just thrash everyone who plays it against you? Not only will your oponent learn not to use it again, but you will gain a better understanding of opening principles (what makes a good opening good) as well. Eventually you'll find opponents who play "standard" openings against you.
If you think I'm talk ...[text shortened]... this was it. And I have learnt a lot from it.
A little humility goes a long way for learning.
Originally posted by TovMauzerThats a great idea. Thanks. 😀
Subscribe and enter thematic tournaments if you would like to learn new openings. Play more games and get established rating if you would like to meet stronger opponents. Post in the "Meet Opponents" forums section asking for game under specific conditions (i.e. "No Scholar's Mate"😀). Stop playing e5, Pirc or French are much better openings🙂 And take it easy.
Originally posted by lucifershammerMatter of taste of course. But, surprisingly, Pirc is more fighting opening than Caro. Black have less drawing chances, but more winning chances.
Pirc or French??!!
OK, I'm just kidding about the French. But the Pirc?? Why not play the Caro-Kann instead - you'll never lose.