so who's used a chess computer to cheat?

I admit to following some game with the computer...But I don't ask it to suggest moves, only critique moves I just made. it would probably be more genuinely mine if I waited until after the game to analize it, but its the instant gratification thing. I would rather the ideas behind the game be mine, though.

whats the point of cheating?and if you need a comp to analyze your games you are cheating yourself of finding that brilliant move for yourself

I have never taken a move back because a computer told me to. The moves I make are mine. Everytime I play Chessmaster I use Blunder Alert, but what educational value is there in playing the computer's moves over my own? It is nice to know exactly where trouble started in your thinking after a loss. Its the best way finding the strongest moves in future games.

Originally posted by kingisdead
Still, I'm at a loss as to how they tell if you are using one. After all, the move I choose, just may very well be the same one the computer chose in a given position. How can they tell if it came from my brain or the silicone savante? I don't know. I just know that I am not going to cheat and find out the hard way. After all, Big Brother just may have cameras in my room watching me. (Not!)

I've never used a computer to suggest moves. although ive been in some interesting middle games and end games where i'd love to see what is the best computer move. Unfortunately, i have to wait til the game is over. By then i have move "interesting" positions to ponder and don't have time to go back. I know there are people who use computers all the time, just like there are people who'll hit you over the head and take your wallet. Dishonesty is dishonesty.

I think there's no real point in trying to stop computer use on sites like this. There are a few ways of looking at it:

1) You can't stop people using them without some very time consuming and /or sophisticated methods. Even then you are very likely to accuse a non-computer user of cheating.

2) The computer players are rated so highly that most patzers won't have to play them too often and then so what anyway? It is very similar to playing a very strong player, the odds of winning are miniscule.

3) Even with computers, there is a difference in chess skill shown by the players. The better players use the software intelligently and dream up imaginative conceptions the computers would be unlikely to find on their own. A computer is then used to check the tactics. So there are no surprises there, a strong player with a computer is stronger than a patzer with a computer. Thus some of the computer users are still demonstrating their chess skill and are playing interesting chess. This is not something we should necessarily want to ban.



I would like to know why so many people are convinced that the best players on this site would beat strong computers in correspondence games but not OTB? There doesn't appear to be much evidence supporting this on the table. I think there are many players who could do this with some help from silicon friends. I'm not convinced there are many who could do it without.

Let's not argue about whether the top players use computers, I don't see how it can get us anywhere in the short or long term. How can we prove it? And if we could, what are we going to do? Throw some of the site's most central figures off? Don't you go getting get big heads though!


BTW I think this is the best correspondence chess site on the web. I can understand why so many people are annoyed about computer use, but for me it doesn't detract from the huge pros this site offers.

I take the opposite viewpoint from ReeleninReid. At least in his final point. The first part, where he says it's impossible to detect "cheaters." I do agree with that. It is very difficult, if not impossible. However, the "I can understand why so many people are annoyed about computer use, but for me it doesn't detract from the huge pros this site offers." is a personal opinion. If i suspected that anyone was using a computer in our game, i would be more than annoyed. If I suspected a lot of people I was playing were using a computer analysis, I would stop playing at RHP and play Fritz. Why should I pay to play computers? I might not be the greatest rated player but I do put some thought into my moves, and I don't appreciate anyone just clicking on the analysis mode on Fritz or Shredder, etc. and punching in the suggested move.

Originally posted by hypermo2001
I never understand all the talk about using books/computers and "cheating".

If you want to avoid all that stop playing this slow version of chess and go to yahoo and play a timed game! (e.g. 12 minutes) problem solved.

I've used computers to post-analyze my game, but nothing during.

My question is thus: What can be gained from using a computer?

You cannot advance your skill by having a computer play for you...and if you do...you're just displaying how weak you really are as a player...

And perhaps not just as a player, but a real person.

The answer of course is nothing; nothing can be gained from using a computer.

Originally posted by gambit3
A twelve min. game will not save you. My program could beat you easy. All I have to do is give it One to three mins. to play the game. A USCF chess coach lost to it. He told me he could beat a program. So I asked him to try mine and he said yes. The time for that game was ten mins. .

I think everyone that says "what's the point in using a computer" actually misses the point. What's the point of hacking an internet site? But people do it. what's the point of putting sticks up your nose? But people do it. What we have to do is discourage them, expose them, embarrass them. Drive them from RHP. Sorry I don't want to sound like I have a lynch mentality. Reasonable people don't understand a lot of what goes on, but that doesn't mean we can close our eyes to it.

Originally posted by buddy2
What we have to do is discourage them, expose them, embarrass them. Drive them from RHP.

A lot of people on this site are using chess computers, the sad thing is there also seems to a be belief that you cant tell who is using a computer and who is not. It is easy to tell who is using computer assistance thanks to the fact that chess is so complex.

Heres what I mean, the varitations of moves after each number

Move 1) 20 choices for white
Move 2) 20 responces for black so 20 x 20 gives a possible move variation of 400 moves after just move 2, the compexity increases amazingly as the game goes on

Move 3) 8,902
Move 4) 197,742
Move 5) 4,897,256
Move 6) 3,284,294,545
Move 7) 88,867,026,005

Ok so this wont mean a lot in the opening, since most people on the site know the openings and play down the variations, however you can look at players games, who have 80%+ of their moves (after the opening) in the top 4 of Fritz, Junior, Hiarcs etc and that occouring for nearly all their games. These are the people who are cheating. Compters play chess in a much different style from humans, they just crunch numbers, a semi good engine is going to do at least 600,000 chess moves per a second. Humans on the other hand have to use instinct developed over the time (hence we all have style different from chess compters) they have played chess. Anyone who tells you they make the same moves as an engine for most of the time is having you on, there are millions of grandmaster correspondence games out there, if you look at them and run them through a chess engine you will see that for almost all of their games the majority moves they pick wont match up to chess engines (bar forced moves etc) Im not saying everyone whos moves match up to fritz is cheating, what i am saying though, is if it happens game after game, the odds of that happening without computer aid is very very very slim, the chance of it happening for 20 games on the run for example is 10 to the power of 27, or more than all the atoms in the universe 🙂

Sorry if this seems to be ranting a bit, but its safe to say that if peoples moves match up to chess engine moves, then they are cheating. Another thing to remember is most chess engines have a rating of over 2500, so anyones whos moves do match up to a chess engines for most of the game, should be at last a Master. Most of the ligit top players on this site will tell you they can spot if someone is running deep fritz or deep junior after about 15-20 moves.

Ok i'll stop ranting now 😛

James

Originally posted by ReelEmInReid
That's a good sentiment but it is not going to stop people from using computers. Have you got any concrete ideas for ways to stop people using computers?

Originally posted by Grayeyesofsorrow
Id name one i know cheats for sure, but then id probably have people having a go at me for anti social behaviour, the site should have a set procedure for dealing with suspected cheaters, at the moments there isnt anything we can do but whine 😛