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  1. 31 Aug '06 00:13 / 1 edit
    Ok, this opening is for black and I think it is almost garunteed to get you into the middle game with material equality.

    First of all, this opening basically fights for a draw or waits until white slips up and it can capitalize.

    1.e4 d6 2.d4 e6

    Black has now d7 and e7 available for occupation by either knight, but should play accordingly.

    Lets say white advances pawns.

    1.e4 d6 2.d4 e6 3.d5 [3.e5 dxe5 dxe5 QxQ, eliminating castling for white]

    Here, black can transpose into a french by advancing th e pawn, but then a tempo is lost, bad move. Black can trade pawns opening the e-file similar to petroffs defence, except he must accept some strategic shortcomings... Black can counter by developing a knight outside the pawn formation... this ultimatley leads to an inferior position and a ruined pawn structure. Instead black should immediatley attack the base of the chain.

    3...f5 4.exf5 e5 and black is looking good, similar to kings gambit from whites perspective but better!

    If white defends the chain with the f-pawn black captures anyway then white recaptures and black plays Qh4+, winning pawn and maybe rook.

    If white defends with the knight or the bishop then black still does the exact same thing, Fxe and then white recaptures and play is drawish... but the whole point is that things get kept fairly simple and it is a great way to gain an understanding of the chess board even if you aren't fighting for a win.

    Any further analysis is greatly appreciated, I have to go and can't finish analysis, sorry.

    1.e4 d6 2.d4 e6 3.d5 f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 Nxe4 e5 [Nf3[c6[Nd7]]]
  2. 31 Aug '06 00:49
    Chess should be fun and playing "strong passive openings" dosen't sound fun to me, besides active defence is much better than passive defence, if you don't have any counterplay you'll get smashed.
  3. 31 Aug '06 00:54
    sorry im dumb i guess, but whats a strong passive opening???? doesnt that totally contradict itself....
  4. 31 Aug '06 02:47
    Originally posted by alexstclaire
    sorry im dumb i guess, but whats a strong passive opening???? doesnt that totally contradict itself....
    I was thinking the same thing. If it's passive, it usually isn't strong. You have to react to your opponent.
  5. 31 Aug '06 02:48
    Originally posted by ChessJester
    Ok, this opening is for black and I think it is almost garunteed to get you into the middle game with material equality.

    First of all, this opening basically fights for a draw or waits until white slips up and it can capitalize.

    1.e4 d6 2.d4 e6

    Black has now d7 and e7 available for occupation by either knight, but should play accordingly.

    Le ...[text shortened]... and can't finish analysis, sorry.

    1.e4 d6 2.d4 e6 3.d5 f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 Nxe4 e5 [Nf3[c6[Nd7]]]
    this is stupid a much better second move for black is e5
  6. Standard member ark13
    Enola Straight
    31 Aug '06 03:14
    Originally posted by tomtom232
    this is stupid a much better second move for black is e5
    Yeah, you're the kind of person that should be preaching his vast opening knowledge. Almost any opening is playable, and this is quite common. Your opening choice depends on your style, not which move is technically "better."
  7. 31 Aug '06 03:20
    Originally posted by ark13
    Yeah, you're the kind of person that should be preaching his vast opening knowledge. Almost any opening is playable, and this is quite common. Your opening choice depends on your style, not which move is technically "better."
    yes but if there is a MUCH better move than why not play it anyways I was making a point becuase it is usually better to prepare d5 by Nc6. In other words I was being sarcastic
  8. Standard member Dragon Fire
    Lord of all beasts
    31 Aug '06 07:33
    This is playable but only just. Black is going against all standard opening principles by not occupying the centre and against a moderately strong opponent will be punished.

    Therefore, the opening is not strong.

    Stronger would be
    1. e4 .. e5
    2. f4 (as white)

    or

    1. e4 .. c5
    2. d4 (as white)

    Aggressive, rather than passive and more likely to get results.

    As black try

    1. e5 .. e5
    2. d4 .. d5; (which I hate as white and which leads me into trying for unnecessary premature breaks in frustration becuase it is kind of passive) or

    1. d4 .. Nf3
    2. c4 .. c5

    and stop playing moves like a3(6), h3(6) Bd3(6) with a pawn on d2(7), Be3(6) with a pawn on e2(7). These will get you a far better game than e3(6) followed by d3(6)
  9. 31 Aug '06 11:55
    just move all your pawns out one or two spaces that'll confuse them
  10. 31 Aug '06 12:17
    Originally posted by ChessJester
    Ok, this opening is for black and I think it is almost garunteed to get you into the middle game with material equality.

    First of all, this opening basically fights for a draw or waits until white slips up and it can capitalize.

    1.e4 d6 2.d4 e6

    Black has now d7 and e7 available for occupation by either knight, but should play accordingly.

    Le ...[text shortened]... and can't finish analysis, sorry.

    1.e4 d6 2.d4 e6 3.d5 f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 Nxe4 e5 [Nf3[c6[Nd7]]]
    I think it's better to fight for a win and settle for a draw if need be
    Nevertheless,I find this intresting.But you've only showed what could happen when White advances his pawns further.What happens when White develops his pieces?
  11. 31 Aug '06 12:31 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by tomtom232
    this is stupid a much better second move for black is e5
    err dragonFire pointed out that he said black not white so I retract my statement.
  12. Standard member Dragon Fire
    Lord of all beasts
    31 Aug '06 12:42
    Originally posted by tomtom232
    this is stupid a much better second move for black is e5

    Originally posted by zebano
    No, It's not.

    1. e4 d6
    2. e5? dxe5
    3. Qxe5 Nf6
    4. Bb5 Bd7
    and now you must either exchange your bishop for the knight giving up the bishop pair early without gaining a lead in development or you move the Queen when black takes the lead in development...
    err! He said black, not white!
  13. 31 Aug '06 12:47 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by ChessJester
    Ok, this opening is for black and I think it is almost garunteed to get you into the middle game with material equality.

    First of all, this opening basically fights for a draw or waits until white slips up and it can capitalize.

    1.e4 d6 2.d4 e6

    Black has now d7 and e7 available for occupation by either knight, but should play accordingly.

    Le and can't finish analysis, sorry.

    1.e4 d6 2.d4 e6 3.d5 f5 4.Nc3 fxe4 Nxe4 e5 [Nf3[c6[Nd7]]]
    Er . . . A number of things occur to me about this post . . .

    Like, how is 1. e4 d6 2. d4 e6 3. d5 e5 a transposition to a French?

    Why would white play 3. d5 anyhow?

    Isn't your 'mainline' 1. e4 d6 2. d4 e6 3. d5 f5 4. exf5 e5 just completely crushing for white? Why do you say it offers 'material equality'? White has an extra pawn, a space advantage, and easy control of e4. The compensation in the King's Gambit white claims for the material is a big pawn centre and rapid development; here, black has nothing that compares with that in the centre, and further black's attacking bishop that would develop naturally to c5 is locked in, yet you claim black has a better version of the King's Gambit!

    One last thing - I don't think there's any reasonable way ...f5 can be made into a usual part of an opening system against 1. e4, although it does crop up in a few sidelines (some Frenches with e4-e5, b6+Bb7 lines when e4 is pinned, some wacky Spanish stuff with ...Nxe4.)

    EDIT. Ah maybe you are called ChessJester for a reason!
  14. 31 Aug '06 15:11
    Latvian Gambit (Greco Counter Gambit): 1.e4 e5 Nf3 f5
    Calabrian Counter Gambit: 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 f5
    Lopez Counter Gambit: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.Bc4 f5
    Ponziani Counter Gambit: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.c3 f5
    Rousseau Gambit: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 f5

    All these gambits involve f5...

    I have been told that one of the best ways to learn tactics is to play gambits.

    I think the only real thing you could argue about this opening besides the fact that it lets white have free reign at first is that 2...e6 may be a waste of time, it is only meant to secure the d5 square...

    Maybe this opening isn't that great afterall... but it is surely difficult to play and I think by playing it you can gain a better understanding of the resources available... it almost always involves maneuvering the knights and often becomes very tactical in the middle game.
  15. 31 Aug '06 15:58
    Originally posted by ChessJester
    Latvian Gambit (Greco Counter Gambit): 1.e4 e5 Nf3 f5
    Calabrian Counter Gambit: 1.e4 e5 2.Bc4 f5
    Lopez Counter Gambit: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 d6 3.Bc4 f5
    Ponziani Counter Gambit: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.c3 f5
    Rousseau Gambit: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 f5

    All these gambits involve f5...

    I have been told that one of the best ways to learn tactics is to play gam ...[text shortened]... st always involves maneuvering the knights and often becomes very tactical in the middle game.
    Yes there are black responses to 1. e4 that involve ...f5 I know, but I do not really consider them sound . . . that was the point I was trying to make.