System against the sicilian needed

Originally posted by wormwood
umm... you're a king's indian player, aren't you? how's that any different? 🙂

Rec'd, because I just could not stop myself!

Originally posted by greenpawn34
Stop posting these frigid, impotent, gutless fianchettoed King's Bishops games.

Play Chess.[/b]

This is pdunne's game, which he posted in the KIA thread, but I am reposting it because I think it is the antithesis of a "frigid, impotent, gutless fianchettoed King's Bishops games."

I should add that ...Qc7 is a somewhat dubious move in this variation, but this is the first time I've seen the thematic Nxd5 sac before playing Bf4 to set up the discovered attack on the queen. A great game.

I think so many things in chess are not what you play, but how you play it.

[/b]

Originally posted by wormwood
umm... you're a king's indian player, aren't you? how's that any different? 🙂

One difference is that, in the King's Indian, black does not always play ...e5. Another is that when he does, that pawn is immediately under attack, so the Bg7 is doing a useful job: defending it. In the Closed Sicilian, there is no necessity for Black to challenge e4, which will just sit in its place blocking Bg2's path.
In fact, I can see no reason why Black doesn't, at some point, just play ...e5, blockading the bishop for the rest of the game. I'm sure there is some reason, since it doesn't seem a popular choice, but still - that bishop on g2 is staying there, doing not a lot. And on the other hand, g3 and Bg2 seem solid book moves considered a good choice by real world, non-Internet experts, so there must be something to them.

Richard

Originally posted by Paul Leggett
This is pdunne's game, which he posted in the KIA thread, but I am reposting it because I think it is the antithesis of a "frigid, impotent, gutless fianchettoed King's Bishops games."

But in that game, the e4 pawn is advanced to e5 pretty quickly, clearing the path of the Bg2. So it doesn't really apply to Greenpawn's argument. (On the other hand, Black's Queen Bishop...)

Richard

Originally posted by rob39
I need a system to play against the sicilian which is straight forward to understand and has a clear objective and of course dodges all the theory??

Nakamura variation. 1. e4 c5 2. Qh5. Clear objective: kill the king. Theory: not a lot, at least not yet. Would I play this? Not on your Nelly. But it satisfies all your requirements.

Richard

If you cannot see the difference between Bg2 and Bg7 then all hope is gone.

The White pawn centre dictates I play Bg7.

The KID Bishop is deployed v 1.d4 on g7 because hello d4.
Black has a target. There is a pawn centre to undermine and attack.

Also after 1.d4 where is my King Bishop going to go?
1...d5 and it ends on e7 Big deal.
1...Nf6 and...e6 a Nimzo Indian it goes to b4. Perfectly playable but I play the
Bb5 Sicilian and the Lopez. Are my King's Bishops forever doomed to go
to b4 or b5. No.

The KID/Benoni/Benko/Grunfeld is my defence v 1.d4

My Bishop knows the reason why it's going to g7. It can see a target.
It has status. It's important. It's a Chess piece.

On the other hand the sad look on a Bishop's face when you slip him
to g2 after actually playing 1.e4 is enough to break the heart of even the
stoutest of men. "Why?...Why have you done this to me after playing 1.e4?"

Play 1.Nf3 g3 Bg2 if you want but don't stir the loins of your white army
by playing 1.e4 where every white piece is looking forward to laying
down it's life and then play g3 and Bg2.
The howls of discontent can be heard in the Halls of Valhalla.

Originally posted by greenpawn34
If you cannot see the difference between Bg2 and Bg7 then all hope is gone.

The White pawn centre dictates I play Bg7.

The KID Bishop is deployed v 1.d4 on g7 because hello d4.
Black has a target. There is a pawn centre to undermine and attack.

Also after 1.d4 where is my King Bishop going to go?
1...d5 and it ends on e7 Big deal.
1...Nf6 an ...[text shortened]... d then play g3 and Bg2.
The howls of discontent can be heard in the Halls of Valhalla.

As long as the centre is not 'fixed', I don't see why Bg2 and e4 would belong to inconsistent strategies. And that is one of the ideas behind the 'closed' Sicilian, in my opinion.

Hi Paul.

Posting one game 56 moves long where the g2 Bishop acted as a
spectator for the 20 moves whilst the damage was being done by the
Queen and Knights hardly speaks volumes for the g2 Bishop.

Good game though, can't Black draw that ending?

Hi Meph.

You are not seeing the point.
Why adopt that strategy when you have no need to.

You have played 1.e4.

You are staring at your opponent coldy in the eye.

"Give me what you have got...come on...you must have something
against it.....what ever it is me and the boys are kicking your butt."

1....c5

"OH NO! a Sicilian. Quick hide the Bishop on g2 retreat retreat retreat."

Originally posted by Shallow Blue
One difference is that, in the King's Indian, black does not always play ...e5. Another is that when he does, that pawn is immediately under attack, so the Bg7 is doing a useful job: defending it. In the Closed Sicilian, there is no necessity for Black to challenge e4, which will just sit in its place blocking Bg2's path.
In fact, I can see no reason ...[text shortened]... choice by real world, non-Internet experts, so there must be something to them.

Richard

it was a rhetorical question. the point is gp is criticizing a structure well known for it's attacking potential. 🙂

about 'defending' the e-pawn with the bishop... the pawn is there to crush the enemy, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of their women. not to sit around and require protection.

when you block it, the f-push WILL come, and crack you open. (it comes even if you don't block it, it's just a matter of time) then the usual choices left are either allowing the KID player to get an unstoppable e-f duo battering ram and an open file aiming straight at your king, OR locking the centre and isolating your own pieces from helping your king (inviting fierce attack). the latter is the slower of the two evils, so it's normally preferred.

that's the general idea anyway.

Originally posted by greenpawn34
Hi Meph.

You are not seeing the point.
Why adopt that strategy when you have no need to.

You have played 1.e4.

You are staring at your opponent coldy in the eye.

"Give me what you have got...come on...you must have something
against it.....what ever it is me and the boys are kicking your butt."

1....c5

"OH NO! a Sicilian. Quick hide the Bishop on g2 retreat retreat retreat."

I laugh at your lazy-eyed e4 'stare' and kick in c5 of course. 🙂 but if there was a reasonable way to play f5 against e4, I'd ditch the dragon in a heartbeat and never look back.

Originally posted by greenpawn34
Hi Meph.

You are not seeing the point.
Why adopt that strategy when you have no need to.

You have played 1.e4.

You are staring at your opponent coldy in the eye.

"Give me what you have got...come on...you must have something
against it.....what ever it is me and the boys are kicking your butt."

1....c5

"OH NO! a Sicilian. Quick hide the Bishop on g2 retreat retreat retreat."

No, no. One of the ideas behind the closed Sicilian is an active attack, not a defensive one, against a kingside castle. Only, white plans a pawn storm on the kingside, instead of just piece play. I have had many fun games with a setup like



The bishop on g2 is very useful in controlling black's centre counter-actions.

Although quite an inaccurate game by both sides. The game of the drunken RHP'ers.

Tom Tom my old pal.

That Bishop went to g2 and did nothing for the rest of the game.

White might as well play the Grand Prix Attack by chopping the c6 Knight
with Bb5 and going for f4-f5 without being a piece down on g2.

Hi WW

"....a structure well known for it's attacking potential."

Of course I played it a few times but that g2 Bishop was always a passenger.

Here:

G.Chandler - P. Clarke Edinburgh League 1999.

This came with the KID v The Sicilain.
I picked off a piece a few moves ago and am now looking at a way
of giving it back to finish this off.

(if a piece up always think. "Good I have two pieces to sac." )

I sac a Rook a Knight. Notice the KB Bishop, which made two moves thoughout
the whole game plays no part in this at all. Attempts to sac it on e6
come to nothing.

In all my KIA games I could never get that g2 Bishop involved.
It's was a lump of dead wood. I did that to it. Nobody else. Me.

Anyway here is the combo.
It's starts with a wee trap. Can you see all three reasons why
Black must not play Bd7 in this position?


Can you see ALL the tricks that befall him if he does.

Look out for the Queen check sucking up a Rook to cover a flight square
and then the Queen checking nudging his Black Nibs into the mating hole.



Edit:

Hi pdunne:

"I'm broadly sympathetic to what you're saying, but check out the first
game in Fischers' "60 Memorable Games" before you dismiss the KIA entirely!"

And Fischers says this after game 1 which was played in 1957:

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.Nc3

"This used to be my favourite. I thought it led to favourable
variations of the King's Indian reversed...."

Originally posted by greenpawn34
Tom Tom my old pal.

That Bishop went to g2 and did nothing for the rest of the game.

White might as well play the Grand Prix Attack by chopping the c6 Knight
with Bb5 and going for f4-f5 without being a piece down on g2.

Hi WW

"....a structure well known for it's attacking potential."

Of course I played it a few times but that g2 Bishop w d here.} 9. Qh6+ Ke8 10. Rg8 {Mate. And the part the Bishop played in that.....?}[/pgn]

Well, it's pretty obvious that ...Bd7 is just a cog in the wheels.. I don't see why anybody would play that even if they didn't see you're combo. At first glance I would play something like ...Qc7 planning ...Ba6 and Rc8 pointing at that weak c pawn.


I think you miss the point of the bishop since you don't see many endgames.

1)it well placed for an eventual endgame
2)it is well placed to switch your whole operation to the queenside if needed
3)if things don't go so well it is a wonderful defensive piece

Three pros and one con. 😉