Please turn on javascript in your browser to play chess.
Only Chess Forum

Only Chess Forum

  1. 08 May '07 04:46
    Hi:

    My main goal right now is to win the king and queen vs king and rook against Chessmaster 9000 as well as on its drill and I would like to be able to also win it on www.chessmagnetschool.com's toolbox.

    I am looking to see if anyone has mastered this and can put me in the right direction. I am hoping to find chess software that can help. I have seen examples in books. I heard this ending makes the bishop and knight ending look like cake. I remember reading on one site they said there is not an exact method for winning this ending. I have seen books talk about first learning how to win in the Philidor's position.

    From a couple of examples I have seen it seems you have to memorize forking situations or learn triangulation. One guy tried to show me and I thought I had till I played CM 9000 with it. He was basically trying to show triangulation and forking.

    Right now I got the book Secrets of Pawnless Endings by John Nunn since other books reference for the king and queen vs king and rook example.
    He has diagrams 63 to 90 so it is going to be a while till I finish inputting all the examples in my computer. So, it will be a few days till I finish.

    Right now my goal is only to beat Chessmaster 9000 in this ending rather than learn all the nuances of this ending. Yasser Seirawan said in his endings book that even he does not know all nuances of this ending and this guy is a GM and former number one player in the nation I think.

    I was looking for a software that could help me learn this ending in an interactive manner. I contacted someone at www.chessbase.com if ABCs of Endgame taught this ending the guy referred me to Karsten MUller's DVD. I think DVD is good since it will have him talk and show the picture of the board. I am thinking something more interactive would work better for me. I was thinking if Total Chess Training would help me best learn this ending.

    I realize if I knew all moves in Nunn's Pawnless Ending book I could do the ending. I am thinking this might take more than a week or a while. I was just wondering if there is something that can best give me a feel for this ending in a few hours or a day? Anyone here learned and master it?

    Parag
  2. 08 May '07 07:05 / 4 edits
    as I said in the other thread in which as it seems you basically have said the same things, K+Q vs K+R endings are just irrelevant. I bet, you won't see it occur in any of your games in your whole life, not even one. I also bet you won't see it in any of the grandmaster games you analyze, again, not even one. and more importantly, "mastering" it won't do you any good.

    it seems more of a small obsession than an urge for improving your game play. it won't do anything to your knight and bishop endgames. just calm down, meditate for a while, give it up, and go study knight and bishop endgames, which, believe me, will actually do something about your knight and bishop endgames, since they are knight and bishop endgames(!)
  3. Standard member Dragon Fire
    Lord of all beasts
    08 May '07 11:08
    Very hard. I was lucky in the end in Game 2476497
  4. 08 May '07 12:02
    Originally posted by Dragon Fire
    Very hard. I was lucky in the end in Game 2476497
    To the untrained eye it looks as though you kept checking him until he blundered.
  5. Standard member Dragon Fire
    Lord of all beasts
    08 May '07 12:20 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by Fat Lady
    To the untrained eye it looks as though you kept checking him until he blundered.
    I was following the ideas in my endgame book by Averbach.

    The question is "to the trained eye was I succeeding?"

    The idea was
    If 74. .. Rh3;
    75. Qd2+ .. Kg1;
    76. Qd1+ .. Kg2;
    77. Qe2+ .. Kg1;
    78. Kg4 .. Ra3;
    79. Qe1+ .. Kg2;
    80. Qd2+ .. Kg1;
    81 Qc1+ wins
    There may be other lines and perhaps black can still save this but I think I had the idea although I did miss it at first.
  6. 08 May '07 12:31
    Originally posted by Dragon Fire
    I was following the ideas in my endgame book by Averbach.

    The question is "to the trained eye was I succeeding?"
    Unfortunately I have no idea how the side with the queen is supposed to try and win this ending. I looked at your game to see if I could understand the plan, but I couldn't work out what you were doing apart from trying to force your opponent's king to the side.
  7. Standard member Dragon Fire
    Lord of all beasts
    08 May '07 12:33
    Originally posted by Fat Lady
    Unfortunately I have no idea how the side with the queen is supposed to try and win this ending. I looked at your game to see if I could understand the plan, but I couldn't work out what you were doing apart from trying to force your opponent's king to the side.
    I have now posted the plan above.
  8. 08 May '07 12:35
    Originally posted by diskamyl
    as I said in the other thread in which as it seems you basically have said the same things, K+Q vs K+R endings are just irrelevant. I bet, you won't see it occur in any of your games in your whole life, not even one. I also bet you won't see it in any of the grandmaster games you analyze, again, not even one. and more importantly, "mastering" it won't do yo ...[text shortened]... ething about your knight and bishop endgames, since they are knight and bishop endgames(!)
    Someone said something similar to me about the knight and bishop mate and I listened to them. Then I was playing in a tournament and had knight and bishop + 2 pawns against N+B only. My opponent proceeded to sacrifice his N for one of the pawns and his B for the other and said to me:"Bet you can't mate me in the ten minutes you have left."

    He was right, but you can bet your life that I learned how to mate with Bishop and Knight. As for Queen against Rook pawnless endings, quite a lot of players know they are tricky and will steer them into that position. I think there is a R+p ending versus Q that is quite often drawn, so definitely worth knowing how to play them.
  9. 08 May '07 13:02
    demonseed:

    As a hobbyist, I am for knowing the bishop and knight ending. But I have read in books that said you might encounter this game 1 in 10,000 times or a master said they remember getting that ending once. But if one were going to play tournaments for their life they may never know which game they might end up in with that ending and who knows that game could be possibly the most important game of your life.

    I heard Yasser Seirawan say in his end game he only encountered the king and queen vs king and rook ending once in his life. He also said he does not know all the nuances of this ending.

    Knowing this, I still want to learn how to win the king and queen vs king and rook ending against Chessmaster 9000 because I like solving difficult puzzles or I like being able to do what I thought I could not do before. I am thinking knowing the essential knowledge may serve me one day. YOu said we might be more likely to encounter king and queen vs king and rook and a pawn.

    I did learn the bishop and knight ending. Cant say I know all the nuances of it but I can beat CM 9000 and the toolbox at www.chessmagnetschool.com.

    Sometimes you may never know when something comes in handy.

    Parag
  10. 08 May '07 15:35
    Originally posted by paragshah36
    demonseed:

    As a hobbyist, I am for knowing the bishop and knight ending. But I have read in books that said you might encounter this game 1 in 10,000 times or a master said they remember getting that ending once. But if one were going to play tournaments for their life they may never know which game they might end up in with that ending and who know ...[text shortened]... chessmagnetschool.com.

    Sometimes you may never know when something comes in handy.

    Parag
    It is more common in club play than master play because a master would never assume that his/her opponent does not know the mate.

    In club play quite often your opponent doesn't know it properly and it can be a sneaky way of getting a draw!
  11. Standard member Dragon Fire
    Lord of all beasts
    08 May '07 15:44
    Originally posted by demonseed
    It is more common in club play than master play because a master would never assume that his/her opponent does not know the mate.

    In club play quite often your opponent doesn't know it properly and it can be a sneaky way of getting a draw!
    I have never come across a player who could not mate with B & N in the league should he need to do so and I would always assume my opponent can unless he has limited time (say less than 60 seconds) - 10 minutes would be more than adequate.

    Q vs R on the other hand as the game I have posted here demonstrates is an extremely difficult ending to win.
  12. 09 May '07 10:27
    Originally posted by Dragon Fire
    I have never come across a player who could not mate with B & N in the league should he need to do so and I would always assume my opponent can unless he has limited time (say less than 60 seconds) - 10 minutes would be more than adequate.

    Q vs R on the other hand as the game I have posted here demonstrates is an extremely difficult ending to win.
    I'm surprised you say that you've never met anyone who can't mate with B + N Dragon Fire. I think it's very tricky and I wouldn't feel confident about doing it myself. I don't think many players below 140 ECF would be able to pull it off against a stubborn defense.

    I've only seen it in real life on two occasions: Once an IM who polished his opponent off in a couple of minutes with what looked like perfect technique. The other time was in a tournament when a fairly weak (100 ECF) lady player obtained it in one of the morning rounds. The game was adjourned and at lunchtime a friend of hers (about 200 ECF!) taught her how to do it and she remembered it well enough to win the game in the afternoon.
  13. Standard member Dragon Fire
    Lord of all beasts
    09 May '07 12:34
    Originally posted by Fat Lady
    I'm surprised you say that you've never met anyone who can't mate with B + N Dragon Fire. I think it's very tricky and I wouldn't feel confident about doing it myself. I don't think many players below 140 ECF would be able to pull it off against a stubborn defense.

    I've only seen it in real life on two occasions: Once an IM who polished his opponent off ...[text shortened]... ught her how to do it and she remembered it well enough to win the game in the afternoon.
    Maybe because most people resign before you get there.

    I will happily play anyone a rated game with these pieces. Tricky it is so it pays studying but I find anyone playing seriously OTB is reasonably confident about doing it.

    I would make the point that studying the ending helps with endings and piece co-ordination generally so is worthwhile even if you never experience the exact ending.
  14. Standard member wormwood
    If Theres Hell Below
    09 May '07 12:54
    Originally posted by Dragon Fire
    I have never come across a player who could not mate with B & N in the league should he need to do so and I would always assume my opponent can unless he has limited time (say less than 60 seconds) - 10 minutes would be more than adequate.
    just to give some perspective for others, I haven't tried KBN for some time, and it took me 75 seconds to mate CM9000 just now. it moves immediately though, so against a human 30-40 seconds is probably enough.
  15. Standard member adam warlock
    Baby Gauss
    09 May '07 12:58
    Originally posted by wormwood
    just to give some perspective for others, I haven't tried KBN for some time, and it took me 75 seconds to mate CM9000 just now. it moves immediately though, so against a human 30-40 seconds is probably enough.
    Wow!
    I know the ideas for this mate but haven't really tried yet. I better get it going in the meantime.