01 Sep 05
Yeah, I read the general thread on it. I gather they analyzed games
for the last 8 months before coming to this conclusion. Using a
commercial program like fritz or something on the games that had
already been played and found the prog gave the exact same moves
game after game, something a human would never be able to
duplicate no matter how strong, they will always differ from a prog.
It sounds like they did a LOT of background checking here.
We (Cats clan) lost two members, Yozzer and Queenfosavage.
So good riddance, eh.
02 Sep 05
Having played several games against both Yozzer and Ironman, it was pretty obvious to me that they were both using powerful engines. Good riddance to them. Only sad thing is that in one of my outstanding games against Ironman (which presumably will not now be finished) I was actually beating him and whatever monster he uses!
Even the strongest engines still have weaknesses...
02 Sep 05
2 edits
Originally posted by Northern LadThe shocking part is IM is supposed to be a FIDE arbitrator!
Having played several games against both Yozzer and Ironman, it was pretty obvious to me that they were both using powerful engines. Good riddance to them. Only sad thing is that in one of my outstanding games against Ironman (which presumably will not now be finished) I was actually beating him and whatever monster he uses!
Even the strongest engines still have weaknesses...
Like a ref in a boxing match deciding ahead of time who wins, eh.
And good for you you were winning! I was looking at players profiles
and just noticing the ones accused of cheating have way differant
shaped curves in the player chart. Some of the cheaters charts have
smooth curves but Yozzer has a jagged curve, have to analyze that
a bit closer.
02 Sep 05
1 edit
Originally posted by sonhouseYozzer lost this game due to a blunders Game 1172222 - he apparently forgot his queen was en prise.
The shocking part is IM is supposed to be a FIDE arbitrator!
Like a ref in a boxing match deciding ahead of time who wins, eh.
And good for you you were winning! I was looking at players profiles
and just noticing the ones accused of cheating have way differant
shaped curves in the player chart. Some of the cheaters charts have
smooth curves but Yozzer has a jagged curve, have to analyze that
a bit closer.
If IronMan31 is xxxxxx they'd better be right about it as they will just have accused a FIDE referee of cheating. One would assume that they could back their decision up.
02 Sep 05
Originally posted by DeepThoughtThe intended move was probably Qd1.
Yozzer lost this game due to a blunders Game 1172222 - he apparently forgot his queen was en prise.
If IronMan31 is xxxxxxthey'd better be right about it as they will just have accused a FIDE referee of cheating. One would assume that they could back their decision up.
What's really strange is that I was actually beating Yozzer in one of my games. I doubt that I would've ended up winning, but I was up material without compensation.
02 Sep 05
1 edit
Originally posted by ark13Ark13: When I was beaten by Yozzer it felt like being beaten by a human, I've played machines and they invariably trash me very quickly - partly due to my inability to take them seriously and partly due to my inability. I'd say the same of Ironman31 and Queenoflasvegas. To be honest I'm sceptical about the verdict, but since I have only the games I played to go on, and liked both Yozzer and IronMan, and it is quite possible that they didn't use artificial aids to beat me, and the games mods had the various tools that they had I cannot dispute their verdict. They are apparently 100% sure.
The intended move was probably Qd1.
What's really strange is that I was actually beating Yozzer in one of my games. I doubt that I would've ended up winning, but I was up material without compensation.
FieryTorment
Could you imagine the scandal in FIDE if we showed them solid evidence of this? He should/could lose his job IF we are correct.
Fierytorment: I agree, an official should be beyond reproach; but turn that on it's head, if the games mods are wrong they've just upset FIDE. Of course it is quite possible that Ironman31 was nothing to do with xxxxxx, I used to read a lot in the forums about him that may or may not have been true.
I learned from losing to both Yozzer and IronMan31, or their chess computers, if they cheated then what has happenned is all that could happen, but I still feel a degree of sadness about it.
I would like the games moderators to explain their methods although I understand a need for a certain amount of vagueness regarding the detection methods to avoid workarounds. For example, No1Marauder, whom I have no problem with, when unprovoked his posts can be quite thoughtful, published some statistics about games played and match ups with Fritz. Now a crude approach would be to go through a players games and if they had a more than 80% match up with Fritz moves then ban them. The problem is I am sure I have managed to find Fritz moves. Especially when in check and there's only one move that's legal. You have to look at the individual games and within those make an assessment on each matched move whether a human would be likely to go for it or not.
A case in point: Game 1062001 up to move 19 this was analysis by Rashkovsky in Nunn's Book on the Bg5 Najdorf, giving white an advantage (+/=) after 19. Qxh8 Ne5 20. 0-0 Qg7 21. Rxf8 Qxf8 22. Qxh7. IronMan or Fritz varied with 19. .. Qc5 which stopped me from castling, but the killer was on move 21. ... 0-0-0 !! a study like move, after that I was going through the motions knowing I'd lost - I almost should have resigned then to make the game more perfect. I don't have Fritz and don't know if that's it's suggestion, but is it beyond a human? The rest of his moves were not hard to find, it is quite likely that Fritz agreed with all of them. So it comes down to your assessment of how hard it was to find 21. ... 0-0-0. If IronMan is xxxxxxthen I think that he could have found it - xxxxxxhas an ICCF rating of 1900 - 2000 so it is quite possible.
I should add, after this essay of dissent that I think that David Tebb is clearly the best person to lead the moderation team and I hope that he was right in the assessment of the games.