Women and chess

Originally posted by Palynka
Ah, Fabian, the Swedish ethnocentric. What exactly do you think my "culture" believes in? Come on, say what you're thinking. Tells us your "thoughts" about the hairy Mediterranean machos.

Aren't you supposed to be a scientist? Stick with scientific evidence.
Do you think that the differences between male and female brain are a "cultural phenomenon"?
If ...[text shortened]... ert that there is no difference between the biological ability of sexes to play chess?

All I said was that our different opinions may be a result of different cultures. Then you went going?

We don't know much yet about the true differences between the brains from the men and women. And we certainly have not found a 'chess center' in the brain. Then we cannot find any scientific hard facts about women and chess. Please, enlighten me of the opposite, if you have them.

This is not about science, this is about opinions. And mine are that the diffeerences are bigger between individuals of the same sex, than statistical differences between the sexes.

Now, before you get personal, what is your opinion?

Originally posted by FabianFnas
All I said was that our different opinions may be a result of different cultures. Then you went going?

We don't know much yet about the true differences between the brains from the men and women. And we certainly have not found a 'chess center' in the brain. Then we cannot find any scientific hard facts about women and chess. Please, enlighten me of th ...[text shortened]... istical differences between the sexes.

Now, before you get personal, what is your opinion?

You didn't answer my last two questions. Please do and then I'll answer yours.

Originally posted by Palynka
You didn't answer my last two questions. Please do and then I'll answer yours.

Palynka: Do you think that the differences between male and female brain are a "cultural phenomenon"?

I don't think there are so many differences between the male brain and the female brain. I think differences are more prominent between individuals within each sex than between the sexes. (I think I repeated myself now.)

Palynka: If not, how can you presume to use "culture" to assert that there is no difference between the biological ability of sexes to play chess?

Certainly there is a difference of opinions that stems from our respective culture. But there are, in fact, differences in how people is treated in different cultures. And this is what this thread is about. Why there are so statistically few good women in chess. Is the answer 'because of biological or neurological reasons'? Or 'because of cultural and traditional reasons'?

I don't know if I asked you any questions, but if you find any, please answer them.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Palynka: Do you think that the differences between male and female brain are a "cultural phenomenon"?

I don't think there are so many differences between the male brain and the female brain. I think differences are more prominent between individuals within each sex than between the sexes. (I think I repeated myself now.)

Palynka: If not, how can yo ...[text shortened]...

I don't know if I asked you any questions, but if you find any, please answer them.

I don't know if I asked you any questions, but if you find any, please answer them.

You asked me what my opinion was. My opinion is that there are a lot of people that have no factual basis for their opinions. You are one of them.

I HAVE NO PRIOR regarding which sex is better at chess, if any. Your accusations of "cultural" bias against women only show your inability to read, your ignorance about my culture and your ethnocentric attitude.

Now let's go to your answers.
I don't think there are so many differences between the male brain and the female brain.
Then you're ignorant of them. There are morphological differences in brain size, weight, size of specific anatomical regions, grey and white matter content, and hormonal profiles. Do you want me to cite some published studies?

I think differences are more prominent between individuals within each sex than between the sexes. (I think I repeated myself now.)
And? The question is whether gender is a factor or not. A correct approach to this question will take that into account.

Originally posted by Palynka
[b]I don't know if I asked you any questions, but if you find any, please answer them.

You asked me what my opinion was. My opinion is that there are a lot of people that have no factual basis for their opinions. You are one of them.

I HAVE NO PRIOR regarding which sex is better at chess, if any. Your accusations of "cultural" bias against women on ender is a factor or not. A correct approach to this question will take that into account.[/b]

>>I don't think there are so many differences between the male brain and the female brain.
>Then you're ignorant of them. There are morphological differences in brain size, weight, size of specific anatomical regions, grey and white matter content, and hormonal profiles. Do you want me to cite some published studies?

No, you don't have to. If you know where the chess enter is situated in the brain, and if there are any morphological differences there, I certqainly would like to know.

>>I think differences are more prominent between individuals within each sex than between the sexes. (I think I repeated myself now.)
>And? The question is whether gender is a factor or not. A correct approach to this question will take that into account.

And I think not, to that degree that others have. And you think it's genderspecific. Well, I respect that.

Please, there are no ethnocentric accusations from my part. I just state there are cultural differences how to see the differences between men and women, that cultures around the world are different in this matter.

I know your opinion, and I respect yours. I don't have the same opinion, but we all have different opinions, that's not a problem for me.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
>>I don't think there are so many differences between the male brain and the female brain.
>Then you're ignorant of them. There are morphological differences in brain size, weight, size of specific anatomical regions, grey and white matter content, and hormonal profiles. Do you want me to cite some published studies?

No, you don't have to. If you kno ...[text shortened]... 't have the same opinion, but we all have different opinions, that's not a problem for me.

I just state there are cultural differences how to see the differences between men and women, that cultures around the world are different in this matter.
1. So how does my "culture" see the differences between men and women?
2. And what relevance does that have regarding the facts I've presented?

If you know where the chess enter is situated in the brain, and if there are any morphological differences there, I certqainly [sic] would like to know.

Ok, now you're willing to listen. That's already a good start.

There are some studies that report this. Example:
http://www.schachzentrum-baden-baden.de/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/010809-nature-schach.pdf
Summary:
Amateurs - Medial Temporal Lobe
GMs - Frontal and Parietal Cortices
There are morphological differences in these areas. These should then warrant caution when people categorically assert that there are no gender differences in chess ability.

Originally posted by Busygirl
This would be anecdotal evidence in support of my theory. I would suggest that if you divide them into separate single sex teams the girls might last another year or two, but eventually they would still drop out. Mention you are a chess player in most circles, and you will raise the level of intelligence that the people you are speaking with think that y ...[text shortened]... age more women to become proficient at and enjoy chess, because of the ability to be anonymous.

Thank you for taking the time in your response. I appreciate the insight. Regardless of talk about difference in brains and predelictions for math, rationality, etc, I'm still inclined to believe that it is cultural factors that play the bigger part in the domination of top-flight chess by men.

The post that was quoted here has been removed

I didn't ask Busygirl to speak for all women. I asked for her perspective as a woman. I'd be equally interested in yours. And, yes, one of the things that I would ask Ms. Palin, should I have the chance to ever speak with her, would be her thoughts on why men dominate politics.

Edit: Actually, I just read your follow up post, and appreciate your insight, as well.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
No, I don't go off-topic, I give another aspect of the original question.

If you read my first posting of this thread, you see that the question asked is not as easy as the author of the thread imply. There are more to it than just gender, and gender alone. So by discuss if men or women are better in chess, the line of discussion becomes very one-dimen ...[text shortened]... By saying that I'm off-topic, without understanding my arguments, is in fact off-topic itself.

What you see as adding another dimension, I see as stating the obvious. There are more intellegent and less intellegent people. Intellegence comes into play. A more intellegent woman will have the advantage over the less intellegent man. Training comes into play. A woman with more training is going to have an advantage. A woman with more experience is going to have an advantage over a man with less experience.

These things are obvious.

Originally posted by Palynka
I just state there are cultural differences how to see the differences between men and women, that cultures around the world are different in this matter.
1. So how does my "culture" see the differences between men and women?
2. And what relevance does that have regarding the facts I've presented?

If you know where the chess enter is situated ion when people categorically assert that there are no gender differences in chess ability.

Can we agree that we have cultural differences? Do we really have to pinpoint the exact reason that wee se the relationship between man and women differently?
But we're really going too deep into the cultural thing. We (you and me) belong to different cultures, we (you and me) see women differently, that's is perhaps the reason that we (you and me) see things differently.

Okay, Medial Temporal Lobe, and Frontal and Parietal Cortices have morphological differences for different people, some men some women, but these regions are quite large, aren't they?

Do you know for sure that it has to do with chess abilities alone? The differences perhaps has other reasons? Can you really see the brain morphs and decide wheter he/she is a good chessplayer or not? I doubt it.

Thank you for the link, by the way. Very interesting!

Another 'sport' that are brain intensive is bridge. In that sport men and women are considered being equally good. They challenge in the same class, there are no Ladies class, nor Gentlemens class. I see a paralell here, and draw conclusions accordingly.

Originally posted by Eladar
What you see as adding another dimension, I see as stating the obvious. There are more intellegent and less intellegent people. Intellegence comes into play. A more intellegent woman will have the advantage over the less intellegent man. Training comes into play. A woman with more training is going to have an advantage. A woman with more experience is going to have an advantage over a man with less experience.

These things are obvious.

Yes, of course they are obvious. Sometimes we don't see the obvious things because they are so ... eh ... obvious.

Often we go into the traditional paths. "Chess is a brain intensive 'sport'. Women are not brain intensive. Therefore women have no abilities for chess." Well, I see women equally able to play chess, and to be as good as men. But they have a disadvantage in their number. This is my opinion.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Yes, of course they are obvious. Sometimes we don't see the obvious things because they are so ... eh ... obvious.

Often we go into the traditional paths. "Chess is a brain intensive 'sport'. Women are not brain intensive. Therefore women have no abilities for chess." Well, I see women equally able to play chess, and to be as good as men. But they have a disadvantage in their number. This is my opinion.

Why are there fewer women playing chess?

If there are scientific reasons why, the I'd think you should be very interested in those reasons.

For some reason you do not seem too concerned about science in this discussion.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Can we agree that we have cultural differences? Do we really have to pinpoint the exact reason that wee se the relationship between man and women differently?
But we're really going too deep into the cultural thing. We (you and me) belong to different cultures, we (you and me) see women differently, that's is perhaps the reason that we (you and me) see t ...[text shortened]... adies class, nor Gentlemens class. I see a paralell here, and draw conclusions accordingly.

Can we agree that we have cultural differences?
Sure.

Do we really have to pinpoint the exact reason that wee se[sic] the relationship between man and women differently?
Of course. If you are going to insinuate that I view women as inferior to men, then you better substantiate it.

We (you and me) belong to different cultures, we (you and me) see women differently, that's is perhaps the reason that we (you and me) see things differently.

I provided you only with scientific arguments, yet you insist on this. I conclude you're a xenophobic twat that is using his prejudices to find a line of counter-argument. I'm sorry, but I can't let this pass.

Originally posted by Eladar
Why are there fewer women playing chess?

That's a very thin argument to make. There are countless many reasons why less women play chess. The world has been unfortunately dominated by men for centuries, you can't expect this not to have a significant impact on the proportion of men and women who play chess.

If they have an impact, then that can explain the fact that less women play chess than man. This fact alone, then, cannot by itself be used to conclude anything.

Originally posted by Palynka
That's a very thin argument to make. There are countless many reasons why less women play chess. The world has been unfortunately dominated by men for centuries, you can't expect this not to have a significant impact on the proportion of men and women who play chess.

If they have an impact, then that can explain the fact that less women play chess than man. This fact alone, then, cannot by itself be used to conclude anything.

I never said it was this argument alone. Besides, I was asking a question, not making an argument. If I was making an argument, then I'd give a reason.

It seems you are trying to make something out of nothing.