# dealing with death.

kcams
Posers and Puzzles 02 Feb '05 16:26
1. 02 Feb '05 16:26
you just died!

death rises in front of your eyes just as the rest of the world disappears, left in a small pocket of light is you , Death, a small perfectly round table and a large stack of coins.

Death speaks

&quot;we shall pick a coin from the pile one at a time. we shall place the coin anywhere on the table that we choose to. the coins must not overlap in anyway. all the coins are exactly identical. they must all be laying flat on the table. tails side up. when placing a coin you must not disturb any of the already placed coins. as soon as the table top is so full that no more coins can be placed you will either

go to hell if you cannot go,

go to heaven if you moved last and i cannot go.&quot;

would you like to go first or second??

and why.
2. 03 Feb '05 17:04
Originally posted by kcams
you just died!

death rises in front of your eyes just as the rest of the world disappears, left in a small pocket of light is you , Death, a small perfectly round table and a large stack of coins.

Death speaks

"we shall pick a coin from the pile one at a time. we shall place the coin anywhere on the table that we choose to. the coins must not overlap ...[text shortened]... eaven if you moved last and i cannot go."

would you like to go first or second??

and why.
i think you would want to go first.
if we assume that we can fit a max of three or fewer coins on the table, then the first player can automaticly win. beond that i would need paper and pencil, maby compass. in all cases, it seems that the first player would be able to set the course for the entire game.

in any &quot;perfect&quot; game of logic, the first player need never louse.
this game seems to be perfect, and there is no possibility for a tie, so the first play would be theoreticaly able to win no matter how good the second player was.
3. The Plumber
Leak-Proof
03 Feb '05 17:27
Originally posted by kcams
you just died!

"we shall pick a coin from the pile one at a time. we shall place the coin anywhere on the table that we choose to. the coins must not overlap in anyway. all the coins are exactly identical. they must all be laying flat on the table. tails side up. when placing a coin you must not disturb any of the already placed coins. as soon as the table top is so full that no more coins can be placed you will either
Does death play fair? If one assumes not, then one can assume the coins are two-headed with no tails side. In which case, whoever goes first loses.
4. 03 Feb '05 23:08
Originally posted by The Plumber
Does death play fair? If one assumes not, then one can assume the coins are two-headed with no tails side. In which case, whoever goes first loses.
why is it that no matter how hard you try to put a simple puzzle there is always someone who sees the most complicated cheat in the world???

the coins are 2 sided heads and tails and there is no flipping involved!!!!!!!!!!!! they simply have to be laid on the table head down, tails up, flat on the table!!!!!

the puzzle involves explaining why you would go first or second are why.

the idea is that you want to gaurantee that you will survive.
5. Ragnorak
03 Feb '05 23:12
Originally posted by kcams
why is it that no matter how hard you try to put a simple puzzle there is always someone who sees the most complicated cheat in the world???

the idea is that you want to gaurantee that you will survive.
Not to be pedantic or anything, but either way, you're not going to survive. ðŸ˜›

; D
6. AThousandYoung
All My Soldiers...
04 Feb '05 00:59
Originally posted by Ragnorak
Not to be pedantic or anything, but either way, you're not going to survive. ðŸ˜›

; D
Isn't Hell called &quot;death&quot; and Heaven &quot;eternal life&quot; in the Bible?
7. The Plumber
Leak-Proof
04 Feb '05 01:39
Originally posted by kcams
why is it that no matter how hard you try to put a simple puzzle there is always someone who sees the most complicated cheat in the world???

the coins are 2 sided heads and tails and there is no flipping involved!!!!!!!!!!!! they simply have to be laid on the table head down, tails up, flat on the table!!!!!

the puzzle involves explaining why you would go first or second are why.

the idea is that you want to gaurantee that you will survive.
Why is tails side up so important?
8. TheMaster37
Kupikupopo!
04 Feb '05 09:39
It all depends on the radius of the table and the radii of the coins.

Say the radii of the coins are R:

- The radius S of the table is 0&lt;S&lt;2R
You want to go first and balance/place the coin exactly in the
centre of the table. Death cannot balance a coin on the edge (for
there is less then R left!)

- The radius of the table is S=2R
You want to go second, for no matter how you place the first coin,
the second coin fits and will take up all the free space.
9. AThousandYoung
All My Soldiers...
04 Feb '05 12:04
Originally posted by TheMaster37
It all depends on the radius of the table and the radii of the coins.

Say the radii of the coins are R:

- The radius S of the table is 0<S<2R
You want to go first and balance/place the coin exactly in the
centre of the table. Death cannot balance a coin on the edge (for
there is less then R left!)

- The radius of the table is ...[text shortened]... er how you place the first coin,
the second coin fits and will take up all the free space.
If S=2R, and the first coin is placed in the exact center, and you can put another coin by placing it's center of gravity on the edge without it falling off...can't you do that again? In such case I think seven total coins will fit.
10. 04 Feb '05 18:14
Originally posted by The Plumber
Why is tails side up so important?
it isn't, but you have to try and be as specific as possiv#ble in the description of the puzzle or you get people making really stupid claims.
11. 04 Feb '05 18:151 edit
Originally posted by AThousandYoung
If S=2R, and the first coin is placed in the exact center, and you can put another coin by placing it's center of gravity on the edge without it falling off...can't you do that again? In such case I think seven total coins will fit.
the rules are clear that you cannot overlap the coins but it says nothing about balancing them on the edge. in this scenarion and all others there is a clear process that you can follow that always gives the same winner, it is that you choose to go first and place the coin in the direct centre, then whever death places a coin you draw an imaginary line through the exact centre of the coin placed and the coin at the centre and place a coin on the exact opposite position. if you follow this process you will always have a free position to place your coin and eventually when space runs out Death will lose and you will be heavenly bound.
12. BigDoggProblem
04 Feb '05 19:53
Originally posted by kcams
it isn't, but you have to try and be as specific as possiv#ble in the description of the puzzle or you get people making really stupid claims.
But by being over-specific, you mislead your solvers into thinking that irrelevant details matter. It's probably best to deal with the 'really stupid claims' as they arise instead of trying to prevent them with lawyerly detail in the original problem.
13. AThousandYoung
All My Soldiers...
07 Feb '05 08:15
Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
But by being over-specific, you mislead your solvers into thinking that irrelevant details matter. It's probably best to deal with the 'really stupid claims' as they arise instead of trying to prevent them with lawyerly detail in the original problem.
There's nothing wrong with deceiving would-be solvers. Puzzles are supposed to be tricky.
14. BigDoggProblem
07 Feb '05 09:051 edit
Originally posted by AThousandYoung
There's nothing wrong with deceiving would-be solvers. Puzzles are supposed to be tricky.
A puzzle should be tricky because it's naturally difficult, not because the poster presented it badly or deliberately mislead the solver.

If the poster has a history of doing this, people will nitpick about the stipulation rather than attempt to solve the problem.

In this case, there is no need to stipulate that the coins must be placed 'tails up'. It does not matter which side of the coin is up. Only the diameter matters.
15. 08 Dec '05 21:01
Diameter didnt matter either.

:o)

Joe