A food production time bomb?

Originally posted by humy

You can avoid defining your definition of non-organic all you want

In the context of categories of chemicals:

non-organic = not organic = inorganic.

You already said non-organic is not inorganic.

NO, I did NOT! I said, in the real science of chemistry, there was NO distinction between the two. It is only some ...[text shortened]... re synthetic? YES or NO?

If Yes to one but NO to the other, In what sense am I lying here?

Wow! I clearly overestimated your intelligence.

Anybody with a brain knows toxic elements exist in nature. Why stop at arsenic? How about lead, mercury and all of the radioactive elements? Are really stupid enough to think you have a point here?

Show me that those elements are approved for organic farming and I will acknowledge that you are not a moron.

Originally posted by Metal Brain
Wow! I clearly overestimated your intelligence.

Anybody with a brain knows toxic elements exist in nature. Why stop at arsenic? How about lead, mercury and all of the radioactive elements? Are really stupid enough to think you have a point here?

Show me that those elements are approved for organic farming and I will acknowledge that you are not a moron.

Yet again you give an irrelevant post. I have just given irrefutable proof that your assertion that
"non-organic=synthetic" is false by giving two examples of chemicals that are clearly non-organic but are NOT synthetic.
You shouting out more examples such as lead and mercury obviously only confirms my proof.
You respond in desperation to my assertive but not impolite post with unintelligent insults instead of either attempting to counter argue what I just said or be a gentleman and admit you may be in error.
Which chemicals are 'approved' for organic farming is totally irrelevant to the proof that "non-organic=synthetic" is false and I take it your last statement as merely being a desperate attempt to change the subject yet again.

Originally posted by Metal Brain
Wow! I clearly overestimated your intelligence.

Anybody with a brain knows toxic elements exist in nature. Why stop at arsenic? How about lead, mercury and all of the radioactive elements? Are really stupid enough to think you have a point here?

Show me that those elements are approved for organic farming and I will acknowledge that you are not a moron.

Bananas are radioactive LOL 😉



Manny

This is the second year of having a garden out in our yard and It's very fun (some hard work)and I see the potential in growing even more stuff. I live in the middle of a city I think it is totally possible to use land that is vacant in urban settings to grow crops as far as water well that is the only tricky part. I'm thinking of setting up irrigation with PVC next year and then I can control the watering better. There are many alternatives but people are stuck thinking inside the box so to speak.

Manny

Originally posted by menace71
This is the second year of having a garden out in our yard and It's very fun (some hard work)and I see the potential in growing even more stuff. I live in the middle of a city I think it is totally possible to use land that is vacant in urban settings to grow crops as far as water well that is the only tricky part. I'm thinking of setting up irrigation with ...[text shortened]... here are many alternatives but people are stuck thinking inside the box so to speak.

Manny

In my vegetable garden, I currently have only a watering can to water but I managed to dramatically reduce the amount of time I spend watering it by making use of improvised mulches which I have made from any kind of waste wood or leaves I can get hold of which I then cut up into lots of small pieces to make it far more manageable and then carefully place it all over the soil between the plants to stop evaporation of moisture from the surface of the soil (and it also stops the annual weeds growing there thus saving time having to weed!). I have persuaded my neighbor to keep dumping her grass clippings over my side of the fence so that I can also use that as a mulch. In some places I have even used bits of mainly broken slate as a mulch which were just dumped in a pile from the previous owner of the property.

I haven't quite managed to get hold of enough waste material to mulch all the ground and as a result I still have to spend an awful amount of time watering. So I am still keeping my eye out for any opportunity to salvage any waste material suitable for turning into a good mulch so I can hopefully cover ALL the ground of my garden and thus reduce the time I spend watering to virtually zero!

Originally posted by humy
Yet again you give an irrelevant post. I have just given irrefutable proof that your assertion that
"non-organic=synthetic" is false by giving two examples of chemicals that are clearly non-organic but are NOT synthetic.
You shouting out more examples such as lead and mercury obviously only confirms my proof.
You respond in desperation to my assertive but ...[text shortened]... t your last statement as merely being a desperate attempt to change the subject yet again.

No, you gave examples of elements. You keep saying inorganic cannot be used in organic farming and that simply is not the case. Once again, all life is dependent on BOTH inorganic and organic chemicals that are completely natural.
What is not approved for organic farming are synthetic chemicals. This does not mean ALL non-synthetic chemicals can be used though. As I stated before, you can't just extract the poison from hemlock, lead, arsenic, radium or any other poisonous substance and put it on plants and say they are organic farming approved while people get sick from your crops. If you think otherwise then prove it. Anybody with common sense knows you are making an empty case here.
Also, making a synthetic version of a natural chemical is still synthetic. THC is a natural chemical from the cannabis plant, but they call it synthetic THC if you cook it up in a lab. Using synthetic chemicals is not organic farming approved and is therefor non-organic. This does not mean using ANY natural chemical is organic farming approved though. You are trying to say ANY natural chemical or element can be used for organic farming and that is simply not the case.
Your post is what is irrelevant. It makes no sense because you are telling me to prove a negative. I'm telling you to prove a positive that you are asserting. The burden of proof belongs on you, not me.

Possibly you two are obsessing too much over the word organic. In strict chemistry terms it means compounds of carbon, so it doesn't matter if it's synthetic or natural. In farming I think the word organic has a wider meaning connoting the concept of working with nature, rather than trying to force it. So using a synthesized chemical would not breach organic farming's rules provided it upheld the wider principle of respect for the soil rather than the pillage that high intensity farming fosters.

Words change their meanings between fields of science, look up homologous for maths/physics and for biology and you'll see they use the same word to mean two different things.

Originally posted by Metal Brain
No, you gave examples of elements. You keep saying inorganic cannot be used in organic farming and that simply is not the case. Once again, all life is dependent on BOTH inorganic and organic chemicals that are completely natural.
What is not approved for organic farming are synthetic chemicals. This does not mean ALL non-synthetic chemicals can be use ng you to prove a positive that you are asserting. The burden of proof belongs on you, not me.

Yet another totally irrelevant post from you that is oblivious to what I actually said.

No, you gave examples of elements.

Actually, I gave the example of arsenic and naturally occurring crystals of arsenic and naturally occurring uranium ore -the latter not being a chemical element and for the former I said:

“The chemical element Arsenic. But, if you disallow chemical elements, what about when that poisonous Arsenic is found in nature in crystal form? “

It is you that then gave examples of ONLY chemical elements with “How about lead, mercury and all of the radioactive elements? “.

So, if you have an issue with using examples of elements here, then why did you use them?

You keep saying inorganic cannot be used in organic farming

NO, I have NEVER said/implied this.
If you deny these fact, then tell me exactly where I said/implied this....
In fact, I once said sulfur IS used in organic farming. This would be an example of an element that can be used in organic farming. I merely pointed out that sulfur is not defined as "organic" by the rational field of chemistry and the criteria used to define "organic" in organic farming is arbitrary and irrational and I used sulfur to help show this. But, the fact remains, I never said/implied organic farmers cannot use sulfur!

You are trying to say ANY natural chemical or element can be used for organic farming

Again, NO, I have NEVER said/implied this.
If you deny these fact, then tell me exactly where I said/implied this....

It makes no sense because you are telling me to prove a negative.

NO, I have NEVER said/implied this. I am not asking you to “prove” the assertion "non-organic=synthetic" for I have already given a proof that your assertion that "non-organic=synthetic" is false by giving two examples of chemicals that are clearly non-organic (that's non-organic BOTH by the definition of chemistry AND by the definition of organic farmers) but are NOT synthetic. You have yet to deny that I have done this or give any counter argument.

Originally posted by humy
In my vegetable garden, I currently have only a watering can to water but I managed to dramatically reduce the amount of time I spend watering it by making use of improvised mulches which I have made from any kind of waste wood or leaves I can get hold of which I then cut up into lots of small pieces to make it far more manageable and then carefully place it al ...[text shortened]... cover ALL the ground of my garden and thus reduce the time I spend watering to virtually zero!

I think a PVC system where the water in controlled and timed would help also. I wanted to try natural compost with food waste and all but I ran out of patients 🙂 We are basically using Horse manure in raised boxes with covering over the ground like tarp which prevents the weeds. The soil here is hard pan and has to be really worked before it becomes good. The raised boxes eliminates that problem but I think the danger with the boxes is that the water does not leave fast enough and the plants can kinda drown so to speak it's a balance I've noticed. Jalapenos for example don't need as much water as the tomatoes.

Manny

Originally posted by menace71
I think a PVC system where the water in controlled and timed would help also. I wanted to try natural compost with food waste and all but I ran out of patients 🙂 We are basically using Horse manure in raised boxes with covering over the ground like tarp which prevents the weeds. The soil here is hard pan and has to be really worked before it becomes good. lance I've noticed. Jalapenos for example don't need as much water as the tomatoes.

Manny

The soil here is hard pan and has to be really worked before it becomes good.

That sounds even worse than my soil! I have to contend with a crap heavy clay-rich soil here that was compacted like concrete when I first came here and took me a whole month to break it up but the subsoil is still like concrete and I didn't have time to double-dig it (I will now just have to wait for the winter for that and just put up with the bad drainage in the mean time).

Originally posted by humy

The soil here is hard pan and has to be really worked before it becomes good.

That sounds even worse than my soil! I have to contend with a crap heavy clay-rich soil here that was compacted like concrete when I first came here and took me a whole month to break it up but the subsoil is still like concrete and I didn't have time to double- ...[text shortened]... t have to wait for the winter for that and just put up with the bad drainage in the mean time).

I live in the Sacramento Valley in California.....The soil actually is somewhat decent in theory as it's a nutrient rich flood plain but the hot summers and all the first 3 or 4 inches is literally Hard pan but you break it loose and till it and it becomes very good and if you keep it up it gets better over time. last year just rented a tiller and we broke up the ground and added a bunch of compost like veggie matter and egg shells and coffee grounds and tilled it all into the ground and I got some decent tomatoes. This year we built the boxes from scrap fence board they sell it cheap because it has flaws. I plan on building more boxes this year. Our friend has horses and the manure sits for about a year before we use it. The manure breaks down it to a finer almost soil like quality.

Manny

Originally posted by humy
Yet another totally irrelevant post from you that is oblivious to what I actually said.

No, you gave examples of elements.

Actually, I gave the example of arsenic and naturally occurring crystals of arsenic and naturally occurring uranium ore -the latter not being a chemical element and for the former I said:

“The chemical element ...[text shortened]... NOT synthetic. You have yet to deny that I have done this or give any counter argument.

" I have already given a proof that your assertion that "non-organic=synthetic"

No you have not. You cannot put arsenic on any crop without breaking the law. It is illegal no matter what method of farming you use. Try doing it and you will go to jail.

Originally posted by menace71
I live in the middle of a city I think it is totally possible to use land that is vacant in urban settings to grow crops as far as water well that is the only tricky part.

A number of people have tried growing vegetables on public land in cities. Interestingly the biggest challenge they usually encounter is resistance from local government.
I have seen several Ted Talks on the matter.
For example:
http://www.ted.com/talks/ron_finley_a_guerilla_gardener_in_south_central_la.html

Originally posted by Metal Brain
" I have already given a proof that your assertion that "non-organic=synthetic"

No you have not. You cannot put arsenic on any crop without breaking the law. It is illegal no matter what method of farming you use. Try doing it and you will go to jail.

" I have already given a proof that your assertion that "non-organic=synthetic"

NO, I did NOT say that "non-organic=synthetic" is true like you indicate above by leaving out the "is false" bit at the end!
And you KNOW I did NOT ever say "non-organic=synthetic" is true but YOU said this!
So you finally admit that the proposition "non-organic=synthetic" is false and thus you were in error for saying "non-organic=synthetic" is true -just as I have said all the long.
Lets look at the WHOLE of my quote shall we?:-

I have already given a proof that your assertion that "non-organic=synthetic" is false (my emphasis)

How is that NOT me saying "non-organic=synthetic" is FALSE?
IT was YOU that said and clearly repeatedly said/implied "non-organic=synthetic" is true!

Reminder: You said on page 4 second post up from the bottom:-

…. Non-organic=synthetic. If you claim non-organic is anything else you are lying ….(my emphasis)

And I have been telling you "non-organic=synthetic" is false ever since.
Now you want to pretend I was the one who said “Non-organic=synthetic” is true all along and not you? Oh please -don't insult our intelligence. ANYONE who quickly checks out recent posts would CLEARLY see you said this NOT me.
Why can you just be a man and admit when you have been wrong?

Originally posted by humy

" I have already given a proof that your assertion that "non-organic=synthetic"

NO, I did NOT say that "non-organic=synthetic" is true like you indicate above by leaving out the "is false" bit at the end!
And you KNOW I did NOT ever say "non-organic=synthetic" is true but YOU said this!
So you finally admit that the proposition "non-or ...[text shortened]... his NOT me.
Why can you just be a man and admit when you have been wrong?

You can't use synthetic chemicals and have organic certification. Use of synthetic chemicals=non-organic. This statement is true.

That does not mean you can use any non-synthetic chemicals and have organic certification. I never made that statement so you are wrong. You talk as if you proved my statement wrong but you did not.

If you think you can prove organic certification can be obtained with the use of synthetic chemicals go ahead and try. You cannot do it because you are wrong.