1. Subscribersonhouse
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    15 Oct '11 02:10
    I posed a question for the fundies in spiritual, suppose a christian space explorer (he is firmly convinced he has a soul) and doesn't notice he is heading into a black hole, does his soul get sucked in too?

    That is not my question, but that concept led me to something more interesting:

    You all by know know about superposition of particles and photons, etc.

    Quantum entanglement of some attribute of the particle or photon.

    So suppose you have entangled photons, shooting off from each other at 180 degrees. Now suppose one of those photons slams into a black hole. What happens to the other photon? Does it lose entanglement? Does it disappear? Does it maintain the entanglement even though the other photon is deep under the event horizon?

    Has anyone read any papers or something on this idea? I would like to think I am the first to think of it but I doubt it.
  2. Standard memberDasa
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    15 Oct '11 02:18
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    I posed a question for the fundies in spiritual, suppose a christian space explorer (he is firmly convinced he has a soul) and doesn't notice he is heading into a black hole, does his soul get sucked in too?

    That is not my question, but that concept led me to something more interesting:

    You all by know know about superposition of particles and photons ...[text shortened]... or something on this idea? I would like to think I am the first to think of it but I doubt it.
    The soul is not material and is indestructible. - and is unaffected by everything and anything.

    When the body is destroyed in that situation you have described -the soul is free to take birth elsewhere - and along way away from that place.
  3. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    15 Oct '11 02:421 edit
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    I posed a question for the fundies in spiritual, suppose a christian space explorer (he is firmly convinced he has a soul) and doesn't notice he is heading into a black hole, does his soul get sucked in too?

    That is not my question, but that concept led me to something more interesting:

    You all by know know about superposition of particles and photons ...[text shortened]... or something on this idea? I would like to think I am the first to think of it but I doubt it.
    I too thought about your exchange with jaywill.
    Sure , the soul leaves the body for judgment (or so the stroy goes) at death. A physical death.
    Getting sucked into a blackhole is not like physical death at all and I'm not sure the same processes would take place,(as in the "soul" getting "judged" ), regarding the destination of the soul.

    I wonder if their was anyway of going into a blackhole and somehow living to tell about it?
  4. Subscribersonhouse
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    15 Oct '11 02:451 edit
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    I too thought about your exchange with jaywill.
    Sure , the soul leaves the body for judgment (or so the stroy goes) at death. A physical death.
    Getting sucked into a blackhole is not like physical death at all and I'm not sure the same processes would take place,(as in the "soul" getting "judged" ), regarding the destination of the soul.

    I wonder if their was anyway of going into a blackhole and somehow living to tell about it?
    Well, there is the theory that we are right in the middle of one, our entire universe being the result of a white hole squeezing our entire universe...

    But what about the real question I posed, not about silly soul searching🙂 but entangled photon going into a black hole? What happens to the other one? How would it 'know' the other photon was gone? Or would it still 'think' its mate was still there?
  5. Subscriberjoe shmo
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    15 Oct '11 04:511 edit
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Well, there is the theory that we are right in the middle of one, our entire universe being the result of a white hole squeezing our entire universe...

    But what about the real question I posed, not about silly soul searching🙂 but entangled photon going into a black hole? What happens to the other one? How would it 'know' the other photon was gone? Or would it still 'think' its mate was still there?
    Your giving the individual particles a conciousness, but I would suspect that the instant the entanglement is broken between them, all consciousness is lost as said "consciouness" appears to me to be a phenomena of the interaction/entanglement.
  6. Subscribersonhouse
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    15 Oct '11 05:28
    Originally posted by joe shmo
    Your giving the individual particles a conciousness, but I would suspect that the instant the entanglement is broken between them, all consciousness is lost as said "consciouness" appears to me to be a phenomena of the interaction/entanglement.
    Wouldn't that depend on how deeply the two are entangled? If the two particles are entangled via some kind of holographic dimensional bridge as some have said, wouldn't it (the entanglement) survive one going into a black hole?
  7. Wat?
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    15 Oct '11 06:40
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Wouldn't that depend on how deeply the two are entangled? If the two particles are entangled via some kind of holographic dimensional bridge as some have said, wouldn't it (the entanglement) survive one going into a black hole?
    I don't think how deeply entangled they are matters. Anything that enters a black hole becomes non-existant in my book. Almost like a deleted file infomation - gone!

    In that instance I therefore think the entanglement info is lost, as the photon in the blackhole is destroyed. For the remaining photon.... that's another question.

    Maybe it links to another newly created photon to form a new entanglement, or it just travels on its way, bit I do think there is no relationship with the original photon, and therefore we couldn't obtain info from the external photon to read what is going on inside the Bhole.

    -m.
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    15 Oct '11 11:40
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    I posed a question for the fundies in spiritual, suppose a christian space explorer (he is firmly convinced he has a soul) and doesn't notice he is heading into a black hole, does his soul get sucked in too?

    That is not my question, but that concept led me to something more interesting:

    You all by know know about superposition of particles and photons ...[text shortened]... or something on this idea? I would like to think I am the first to think of it but I doubt it.
    Well entanglement is quite fragile so I would imagine that it is very hard to send an entangled
    particle into a black hole without it being disrupted on it's way in.

    I would suspect you need a decent sized black hole so that the hawking radiation isn't too large.

    But then decent sized black holes often have reasonable amounts of matter spiralling in.
    As well as all the odd gravitational distortions.


    However even if you did get an entangled particle into a black hole, you wouldn't be able to get
    any information out.
    As to transmit (teleport) information from one entangled photon to another, you have to also
    transmit some information through space at regular light [or less than light] speed.
    And that will never make it out past the event horizon.


    What might be interesting is weather you can drop one end of a worm hole into a black hole and
    create a way in and out.

    But then wormholes require exotic things like negative energy and repulsive gravity, and how that
    would interact with a black hole is anyone's guess frankly.
  9. Subscribersonhouse
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    15 Oct '11 12:561 edit
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    Well entanglement is quite fragile so I would imagine that it is very hard to send an entangled
    particle into a black hole without it being disrupted on it's way in.

    I would suspect you need a decent sized black hole so that the hawking radiation isn't too large.

    But then decent sized black holes often have reasonable amounts of matter spiralling repulsive gravity, and how that
    would interact with a black hole is anyone's guess frankly.
    An interesting question in itself is whether a photon is actually destroyed in a black hole. Matter would certainly be zapped but photons have no mass to squash. So I am thinking it will get progressively smaller, which means it gains energy by having its wavelength made smaller so therefore it is in a higher energy state.

    What happens next depends on whether the deepest heart of the black hole is actually infinite density, which I personally doubt. The photon in question might come into that area and would now be a much much higher energy photon, maybe a gamma ray at that point, maybe then just running around in circles or something, stuck inside and nowhere to go.

    I guess just gaining energy would be enough to destroy the entanglement if entanglement is so fragile. It would be an interesting experiment if we could pull it off though. Too bad we don't have a nearby black hole to play with, eh.

    One question: If the photon actually gets more energetic, wouldn't that be sucking energy out of the black hole? If enough photons went in, maybe that is one of the reasons black holes eventually explode into white holes. I know the smaller the hole the shorter its lifetime.
  10. Joined
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    15 Oct '11 13:32
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    An interesting question in itself is whether a photon is actually destroyed in a black hole. Matter would certainly be zapped but photons have no mass to squash. So I am thinking it will get progressively smaller, which means it gains energy by having its wavelength made smaller so therefore it is in a higher energy state.

    What happens next depends on w ...[text shortened]... les eventually explode into white holes. I know the smaller the hole the shorter its lifetime.
    Well the problem with asking questions about what happens inside black holes are myriad, starting with the fact
    that what you really need is quantum gravity, which is of course what we don't have yet.

    However even with GR, it's possible to create black holes without singularities inside them, in fact it's possible
    to posit entire universes as existing inside black holes.

    If there is something 'like' a singularity in the middle (I don't believe in actual singularities which is where you need
    the quantum gravity.) then matter or energy of any kind is just going to get smashed into it and absorbed into
    whatever weird materiel it is made from.


    However no photons (or anything else) falling into black holes don't reduce its mass/energy by gaining energy as
    they fall in.
    Apart from anything else they are still inside a black hole and so any energy/mass they have will be adding to the
    overall gravitational field.


    As far as I am aware hawking radiation (or similar) is the only way to reduce the mass of a black hole.

    And a white hole is different from an exploding black hole, a black hole will end it's life in an explosion of radiation,
    but it always has positive (attractive) gravity, unlike a white hole that has negative (repulsive) gravity.
  11. Subscribersonhouse
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    15 Oct '11 14:11
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    Well the problem with asking questions about what happens inside black holes are myriad, starting with the fact
    that what you really need is quantum gravity, which is of course what we don't have yet.

    However even with GR, it's possible to create black holes without singularities inside them, in fact it's possible
    to posit entire universes as exist ...[text shortened]... ositive (attractive) gravity, unlike a white hole that has negative (repulsive) gravity.
    If a white hole has repulsive gravity, sounds like a good argument for our universe being the result of a white hole since we in fact are experiencing ( the universe as a whole, not a hole🙂 repulsive energy.

    If a black hole squishes the size of photons, and it gains energy, where does that energy come from? Does that mean a black hole is an energy generator? Think of a star that gets eaten by a black hole, those giant ones in the center of galaxies, all the entire output of the star's photons gaining energy like it would if the photons are squished down to smaller sizes, that energy input in the first place is immense but then gets even greater? That is mind boggling in itself.
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