1. Subscribersonhouse
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    14 Nov '09 17:061 edit
    I have often wondered how a super intelligent race of dolphins could master fire if ever, for instance by building a raft somehow and using ice to shape a lens, something only a few inches across could focus enough energy from the sun to ignite wood or paper.
    It would for sure lead to a radically different kind of civilization, especially if there were no humans around. But what kind of civilization would they create? What weapons could they make to defend against predators that would give them a real edge? Could they figure out electricity? Could they develop chemistry? Would they invent art forms, say sculpture? Could they invent writing, if so, how?

    I am envisioning a time, millions of years from now maybe, when humans have gone extinct or gone off planet and left Earth as a refuge or interstellar park or something like that, where a race of dolphins or intelligent squid or some such evolved to be the master intelligence on Earth. It looks to me like maybe it would take both dolphins and evolved squid to co-develop technology if it could be done at all, for instance, a symbiotic relationship among friendly dolphins and squid could work out that the squids become the arms and fingers for the limbless dolphins.
    What do you think?
  2. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    14 Nov '09 17:451 edit
    Until they crawl out of the sea and start climbing trees their tool making ability is limited and what kind of technology could get off the ground under water.

    Their only chance is to turn into squeaky-voiced imitations of us.??
  3. Subscribersonhouse
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    14 Nov '09 18:03
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Until they crawl out of the sea and start climbing trees their tool making ability is limited and what kind of technology could get off the ground under water.

    Their only chance is to turn into squeaky-voiced imitations of us.??
    That is the subject I am exploring here, is it forever impossible for such aquatic creatures to master fire or can a sufficiently intelligent and creative species overcome the limits of their aquatic existence?

    If they were to evolve limbs and go to land, wouldn't that just be following in the land animal path?

    I am talking about remaining aquatic and still evolving some forms of technology, long range communications, maybe astronomy, medicine, art, etc. What about dolphin music? Can there be underwater flutes, maybe they could master genetics to such a degree they could grow whatever shape they want, an aquatic animal shaped like a flute which, when it dies, they use the bony structure for a musical instrument. Stuff like that.
  4. tinyurl.com/ywohm
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    14 Nov '09 18:27
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    That is the subject I am exploring here, is it forever impossible for such aquatic creatures to master fire or can a sufficiently intelligent and creative species overcome the limits of their aquatic existence?

    If they were to evolve limbs and go to land, wouldn't that just be following in the land animal path?

    I am talking about remaining aquatic an ...[text shortened]... ute which, when it dies, they use the bony structure for a musical instrument. Stuff like that.
    I would be more curious about what kinds of technology dolphins could create, rather than thinking about a water-based creature caring about land-based technology. Maybe they're waiting for us to overcome the limits of are land-based existence, since the planet is 3/4 water. Then again, maybe they're happy that our limitations keep them safer than if we could interact indefinitely underwater without hiding inside a submarine.
  5. Subscribersonhouse
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    14 Nov '09 20:08
    Originally posted by pawnhandler
    I would be more curious about what kinds of technology dolphins could create, rather than thinking about a water-based creature caring about land-based technology. Maybe they're waiting for us to overcome the limits of are land-based existence, since the planet is 3/4 water. Then again, maybe they're happy that our limitations keep them safer than if we could interact indefinitely underwater without hiding inside a submarine.
    That's what I was getting at. I was using anthropomorphic examples to get the idea across but I alluded to one example, genetic manipulation if they could somehow 'engineer' genes in bacteria or virus material to get shapes or functionality they want.
    But what would they want? That is what I am exploring.
  6. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    15 Nov '09 01:49
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    I have often wondered how a super intelligent race of dolphins could master fire if ever, for instance by building a raft somehow and using ice to shape a lens, something only a few inches across could focus enough energy from the sun to ignite wood or paper.
    It would for sure lead to a radically different kind of civilization, especially if there were no ...[text shortened]... out that the squids become the arms and fingers for the limbless dolphins.
    What do you think?
    Earth. Long after the Forerunners stopped skimming the surface of the sea and occasionally beneath the waves in metal dolphins...the Forerunners from before the dawn of time, the Landwalkers, near-gods.

    These mighty beings came to war among themselves, and burned the landscape dry! Then the few left cast plagues upon one another and used murderous metal servants and toxic fumes to murder those who hid in holes...until they ceased to be, as far as anyone knows. Perhaps there are some hiding, high up on the mountains that reach the sky!
  7. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    15 Nov '09 02:071 edit
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Earth. Long after the Forerunners stopped skimming the surface of the sea and occasionally beneath the waves in metal dolphins...the Forerunners from before the dawn of time, the Landwalkers, near-gods.

    These mighty beings came to war among themselves, and burned the landscape dry! Then the few left cast plagues upon one another and used murderous ...[text shortened]... ar as anyone knows. Perhaps there are some hiding, high up on the mountains that reach the sky!
    After the War of Fire and Plague came the Great Cleansing, as the fires finally died out. But these fires, god-fires, died only very very slowly, with their teeth locked into anything in reach to shred and infect flesh.

    The Sea People (Seaple), still primitive compared to even the lowest of Land Folk before the War, Began to die. Our young ones, when the womb and the seed have not been burned out of the parents, were often born with extra tails, or extra eyes, or without fins or a snout, and these all died slow, painful deaths from the deadly curse. The Land Folks' weapons were terrible indeed!

    This time was the Time of Sorrow, before the Cleansing. It was followed by the Time of Wisdom, as the Prophets came to guide us away from the fires and teach us the ways of Reason. They thought, and they thought, and declared that all can be known by thought alone, and were very happy pondering deep truths and determining the Seaples' relationship with the Beast Spirits - Cold and ruthless Shark, the uncannily cunning gigantic pack hunter Orca, the mysterious Tentacle, etc. They came to understand many secrets, and governed the pods well in the deep, far from the fires, and there, at the surface of the deepest part of the sea at night, we were educated until all Seaple could think.

    The Time of Wisdom is followed by the Great Cleansing as Nature finally reclaims the land and the fires truly die. The Seaple thrive during the Cleansing, as it is a time of growth and fertility. We make agreements with Mouthful Fish to maintain a steady food supply while allowing some of his children to live, so the schools can be maintained. It is called the Pearl Age, and is followed by the Realization, as we came to realize that we no longer looked quite like the carved images from long, long ago. There was quite a philosophical and religious uproar over this, with the Pure Racers advocating the ancestral form (which particular ancestral form they could never agree on) and murder of all others, the Futurists, who claimed the potential of the future lay in these deformities, and that society should support the training of deforms. Then there were the Pacifists, who advocated peace and love, and the Podders, who wanted pods to be rearranged to have all of a like mind so each will be without too much internal tension.
  8. Subscriberjoe shmo
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    15 Nov '09 08:12
    we only mastered fire because it was useful to us.....a dolphin would want t master something else.
  9. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    15 Nov '09 09:47
    Originally posted by joe shmo
    we only mastered fire because it was useful to us.....a dolphin would want t master something else.
    good point.

    We only developed technology (skinning animals, tools, fire) because we were NOT well adapted to changes in climate and/or changes of location (as we migrated to colder latitudes).

    In fact you could argue that until very recently the driving force behind new technology was still survival.

    A dolphin which is perfectly eveolved to its environment has no such 'push' to develop technology. Perhaps if the seas got colder they could start using dead creatures for clothing or if food was in short supply they could start using tools to open shell fish? Maybe start farming? (Like ants do)

    Difficult to see how far this could progress much farther....
  10. Subscribersonhouse
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    15 Nov '09 14:031 edit
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    After the War of Fire and Plague came the Great Cleansing, as the fires finally died out. But these fires, god-fires, died only very very slowly, with their teeth locked into anything in reach to shred and infect flesh.

    The Sea People (Seaple), still primitive compared to even the lowest of Land Folk before the War, Began to die. Our young ones to be rearranged to have all of a like mind so each will be without too much internal tension.
    Finally, a sign of real creativity here! One problem about wise dolphins and the lack of technology: how would dolphins protect the planet from rogue asteroids, like the one that supposedly killed the dinosaurs? One big advantage us land lubbers have with mastery of fire and all that is with telescopes we can detect incoming debris and at least theoretically destroy or divert the big ones away from Earth. That can theoretically save the planet because the one that landed in Yucatan also killed off a lot of sea life too. If there had been dolphins around back then, most of them also would have been offed. So how can advanced dolphins save the planet from such an attack, assuming there are no humans?

    YouTube
  11. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    16 Nov '09 00:073 edits
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Finally, a sign of real creativity here! One problem about wise dolphins and the lack of technology: how would dolphins protect the planet from rogue asteroids, like the one that supposedly killed the dinosaurs? One big advantage us land lubbers have with mastery of fire and all that is with telescopes we can detect incoming debris and at least theoreticall ...[text shortened]... from such an attack, assuming there are no humans?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hm5Onbx2Sf0
    The problem I'm having is the lack of hands. Thus the radiation caused evolutionary acceleration (deforms).

    This leads to a cause for war between rival pods as well, which means weapons development should accelerate.

    I think they'll develop animal training and breeding next. The Orca War perhaps, in which trained orca are used as shock weapons - swimming elephants with teeth and a pack hunting instinct...
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    16 Nov '09 03:25
    The use of the term "Evolved Dolphin" can be very broadly interpreted. Evolution doesn't stop so you can't define if something would ever be possible or not.
  13. Subscribersonhouse
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    16 Nov '09 05:21
    Originally posted by Zort Boy
    The use of the term "Evolved Dolphin" can be very broadly interpreted. Evolution doesn't stop so you can't define if something would ever be possible or not.
    At the present time it is thought that dolphins, although very intelligent indeed is still lower in the brain power area as humans. So I was thinking if humans disappeared, there might be strains on the ocean ecology similar to the strains on early humans that led to our intelligence. There were reasons why we evolved our brain power we possess today. It could come to pass that similar but aquatic stresses would engender a large growth in dolphin brains. One problem with that is a large part of the dolphin brain is devoted to acoustic analysis, of its sonar and such, which has more resolution underwater than we do on land with our eyes. That already puts a strain on the development of higher functions since brains already take up about 20 percent of the bodies' resources. That is one reason why it is suggested humans have not much improvement to make in terms of overall racial intelligence. It is conceivable that more of us can be genetically engineered to be smarter but only up to a point. It does not look to be in the cards for the average IQ for instance, to be at 300 or 400 for humans. But the best of us are certainly world shakers and the same could happen with dolphins.
  14. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    16 Nov '09 07:32
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    After the War of Fire and Plague came the Great Cleansing, as the fires finally died out. But these fires, god-fires, died only very very slowly, with their teeth locked into anything in reach to shred and infect flesh.

    The Sea People (Seaple), still primitive compared to even the lowest of Land Folk before the War, Began to die. Our young ones ...[text shortened]... to be rearranged to have all of a like mind so each will be without too much internal tension.
    The Pure Racers and the Futurists immediately began to fight with one another, using coordinated ramming tactics at first, and for the Futurists, any additional natural features they had. You see, there was far more variation among the deforms. The weakest had died young and those who lacked features necessary to battle, like a strong snout and powerful tail muscles, but had other capabilities, were kept apart from the fighting when possible.

    This specialization meant that the Futurist warriors were far fewer in number than the Pure Race warriors, but were often far more capable (but with great weaknesses as well in some cases). Fanged Seaple with mighty jaws, hypermuscular Seaple with speed and strength, Seaple with tough skin and horns, etc. face off with the more numerous Pure Race fighters.

    However, the less battleworthy Futurists were not idle. They did other things; they planned; they prepared traps; they realized that Seaple did not have to rely only on themselves.

    They showed their warriors how to grip sharp stones and artifacts in their snouts and so impale their foes. They spent long hours harvesting appopriate weapons and later on improving them by scraping them on stones and the like.

    They began to train Beasts.

    They herded Mouthful Fish, so the deform population would grow quickly and never suffer for lack of food. They developed the Sphere, Half Sphere, Flat Half Sphere, and many other formations. They tamed the mighty Orca by offering food and slaying any that were hostile with snout spears.

    The Pure Racers became desperate. They imitated the snout spears, but theirs were of inferior quality as they had no dedicated weaponmakers. Futurist tacticians were able to deny them their food, while their own was concentrated in defensible enclaves and littered with traps like heavy objects that would fall, or hidden spines, and large rocks and reefs to block avenues of approach.

    Some of the more warlike Pods of Podders became involved in the war on one side or the other and were absorbed.
  15. Standard memberPBE6
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    16 Nov '09 18:29
    ATY, stop smoking the chronic before watching re-runs of Battlefield: Earth.
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