@Metal-Brain
You didn't read what I wrote. GPS can compensate for time dilation and gravity well effects because relativity equations allows for empirical adjustments that won't change much after the initial compensation but you can bet your boopie they have to do the equations SOMEWHERE to allow the correct compensation numbers to give accurate readings.
If you think otherwise you need to get better educated.
@humy said"given their clock tick rates are designed to take into account relativity, would give incorrect signals causing planes to crush etc etc."
How does that above assertion of mine, as you claim, imply GPS "NEEDS relativity to work" ? As I said countless times before and ALWAYS said, if relativity was hypothetically false then GPS would merely not be designed to take into account relativity and would still work just fine; which is what I have been saying all the time and never claimed or imply GPS "NEEDS relativity to work", which is only YOUR stupid straw man, not mine.
That is how you implied GPS needs relativity to work. Are you going to deny you said it?
@sonhouse saidYou are debating in circles.
@Metal-Brain
You didn't read what I wrote. GPS can compensate for time dilation and gravity well effects because relativity equations allows for empirical adjustments that won't change much after the initial compensation but you can bet your boopie they have to do the equations SOMEWHERE to allow the correct compensation numbers to give accurate readings.
If you think otherwise you need to get better educated.
GPS does NOT use relativity to compensate for time dilation. GPS compensates for time dilation without any need for relativity equations. That is a fact.
GPS does NOT need relativity to work......period.
@metal-brain saidHOW does that assertion imply GPS "needs" relativity to work?
"given their clock tick rates are designed to take into account relativity, would give incorrect signals causing planes to crush etc etc."
That is how you implied GPS needs relativity to work.
Answer; It clearly doesn't.
"take into account" doesn't mean "needs". Do you deny this?
GPS compensates for time dilation
That clearly implies time dilation exists.
So you admit time dilation exists? Yes or No?
If Yes;
You previously said;
"time dilation proves relativity" (YOUR quote)
Therefore, IF everything you said there is correct, GPS ALSO proves relativity.
And yet you contradict yourself by still insist GPS does NOT prove relativity. How can that be?
If No;
How and why, as you said, "GPS compensates for time dilation" if no time dilation exists?
What is it 'compensating' for?
We all know why you will always refuse to answer these above simple questions; you cannot answer them without showing you are wrong and you obviously know it. You fool nobody here.
@Metal-Brain
There are two effects, one due to being high in the gravity well and one due to velocity. Both affect time flow. This is what Einstein found in his relativity work.
Are you claiming there are no such effects? If these effects are not accounted for there will be no accurate GPS. THAT is a fact JACK.
30,000 nanoseconds per day has to be accounted for no matter how it is done, just a clock tick mod or whatever, are you denying that has to be done?
@sonhouse saidNo, I'm claiming that GPS works despite relativity, not because of it. humy claimed planes would be crushed without relativity. That simply is not true and now he is back peddling in a vain effort to save face.
@Metal-Brain
There are two effects, one due to being high in the gravity well and one due to velocity. Both affect time flow. This is what Einstein found in his relativity work.
Are you claiming there are no such effects? If these effects are not accounted for there will be no accurate GPS. THAT is a fact JACK.
30,000 nanoseconds per day has to be accounted for no matter how it is done, just a clock tick mod or whatever, are you denying that has to be done?
GPS accounts for the time difference just fine without any relativity equations. GPS does not need the equations to function properly. How many times do I have to tell you boneheads it is a myth before you believe it?
@Metal-Brain
The sat clocks have to be compensated for. That is a fact. At some point, the equations of time dilation has to be entered by a computer on the ground, or a controllers laptop, whatever. Then after the clock tic compensation number GENERATED BY THE RELATIVITY EQUATIONS, they can enter the compensation number but the bottom line is SOMEONE has to calculate the differences in time flow. What the FUK is so hard to understand about that? Do you think they just dream up a compensation number and try a million times till they get one that works?
@humy saidAgain, that is irrelevant. You know fully well I have countless posts on this science forum claiming time dilation causes gravity. You already know that.
HOW does that assertion imply GPS "needs" relativity to work?
Answer; It clearly doesn't.
"take into account" doesn't mean "needs". Do you deny this?GPS compensates for time dilation
That clearly implies time dilation exists.
So you admit time dilation exists? Yes or No?
If Yes;
You previously said;
"time dilation proves relativity" (YOUR quote) ...[text shortened]... ou cannot answer them without showing you are wrong and you obviously know it. You fool nobody here.
Your effort to digress into time dilation and asking me questions you already know the answers to is clearly to avoid admitting you were wrong. GPS doesn't prove relativity correct, time dilation does. GPS time adjustments take place without the use of relativity equations. Accuracy is not dependent on relativity at all and your assertion planes would crush without them is false.
Admit relativity equations are not used by GPS and GPS does NOT prove relativity correct.
@Metal-Brain
You are thinking upside down and backwards. There is a definite link between gravity and time flow changes. What the FUK difference does it make if time flow changes causes gravity or vice versa?
Oh, if time dilation CAUSES gravity, then you are satisfied Einstein is a crook.
Got it.
So YOU write your paper and publish it in a peer reviewed journal.
When assertions are claimed it is up to the claimer to prove it.
Until then it is just another crackpot theory of which there are millions.
Like flat Earth. Like nobody landed on the moon 50 years ago.
Like the Mafia killed Kennedy.
Like the 911 world trade center affair was an inside job.
So far all I see is your TD causes gravity is on the same level.
@sonhouse said"The sat clocks have to be compensated for. That is a fact."
@Metal-Brain
The sat clocks have to be compensated for. That is a fact. At some point, the equations of time dilation has to be entered by a computer on the ground, or a controllers laptop, whatever. Then after the clock tic compensation number GENERATED BY THE RELATIVITY EQUATIONS, they can enter the compensation number but the bottom line is SOMEONE has to calculate the d ...[text shortened]... think they just dream up a compensation number and try a million times till they get one that works?
I agree. I have already explained how. You should pay better attention.
"At some point, the equations of time dilation has to be entered by a computer on the ground, or a controllers laptop, whatever."
I disagree. What is your source of information? I'm not going to take your word for it. Get that through your thick skull. You and humy have both lied to me making false assertions before. I have no reason to think this is any different.
@sonhouse said"There is a definite link between gravity and time flow changes."
@Metal-Brain
You are thinking upside down and backwards. There is a definite link between gravity and time flow changes. What the FUK difference does it make if time flow changes causes gravity or vice versa?
Oh, if time dilation CAUSES gravity, then you are satisfied Einstein is a crook.
Got it.
So YOU write your paper and publish it in a peer reviewed journal.
When ...[text shortened]... e center affair was an inside job.
So far all I see is your TD causes gravity is on the same level.
When have I EVER said differently?
Einstein said time dilation causes gravity. It is the basis of GR. How many times have we been through this? You seem very confused.
GPS is not dependent on relativity equations to function properly. Time adjustments happen without it.
@Metal-Brain
Where the HELL did you see the part where EINSTEIN said time dilation causes gravity?
AND how else are the compensation numbers to be calculated? Einstein put it together not the dudes that came up with the original formulas Einstein put to much better use.
But you have a hard on against Einstein so no amount of argument will change your hatred of him. That is the bottom line. You are following your contrarian MO.
ONLY YOUR BUDDIES are right and EVERYONE else is wrong.
@sonhouse saidStop trolling. Either prove your assertions or admit GPS doesn't need relativity to function properly. Go back and look at my explanation. I'm not going to repeat myself just because you failed to pay attention. I already proved you both wrong. You are just being dogmatic again.
@Metal-Brain
Where the HELL did you see the part where EINSTEIN said time dilation causes gravity?
AND how else are the compensation numbers to be calculated? Einstein put it together not the dudes that came up with the original formulas Einstein put to much better use.
But you have a hard on against Einstein so no amount of argument will change your hatred of him. That ...[text shortened]... line. You are following your contrarian MO.
ONLY YOUR BUDDIES are right and EVERYONE else is wrong.
@metal-brain saidAnd nobody here claimed the contrary.
No, I'm claiming that GPS works despite relativity, not because of it.
This is just one of your many stupid straw mans that fools nobody here.
@metal-brain saidIn other words, you contradict yourself and now change the subject to avoid answering these few simple questions. We all know why you will always refuse to answer; you cannot answer them without showing you are wrong and you obviously know it. You fool nobody here.
Again, that is irrelevant. You know fully well I have countless posts on this science forum claiming time dilation causes gravity. You already know that.
Your effort to digress into time dilation and asking me questions you already know the answers to is clearly to avoid admitting you were wrong. GPS doesn't prove relativity correct, time dilation does. GPS time adjust ...[text shortened]... false.
Admit relativity equations are not used by GPS and GPS does NOT prove relativity correct.