Fritz Haber is the reason Scientists should respect God / Religion

Originally posted by KazetNagorra
Yes, it's a good thing you won't find anything unethical in business!

not willfully killing people in the most in humane way possible, no you don't get that in business, you do not have to spray people with mustard gas if you work at a bank... he is his own unique level of evil, i don't think anyone can match him.

Originally posted by e4chris
not willfully killing people in the most in humane way possible, no you don't get that in business, you do not have to spray people with mustard gas if you work at a bank... he is his own unique level of evil, i don't think anyone can match him.

So it was his inventions that made him evil? I guess that is a bad legacy, the father of chemical warfare. Kind of negates his Nobel prize.

Originally posted by sonhouse
So it was his inventions that made him evil? I guess that is a bad legacy, the father of chemical warfare. Kind of negates his Nobel prize.

Yes, trouble is he was a brilliant chemist and left quite a legacy, you cannot avoid studying him if you do chemistry. And the chemistry books never say how evil he was. Makes me very wary of people like Dawkins.

Originally posted by e4chris
Yes, trouble is he was a brilliant chemist and left quite a legacy, you cannot avoid studying him if you do chemistry. And the chemistry books never say how evil he was. Makes me very wary of people like Dawkins.

What has Dawkins to do with Haber? Is Haber an avowed atheist? Don't see the connect here. Did Haber write anti-religious books? They seem as opposite as night and day to me. For one thing, Dawkins never invented evil war machines so I would think that would put him on a higher plane ethically speaking than Haber.

Originally posted by sonhouse
What has Dawkins to do with Haber? Is Haber an avowed atheist? Don't see the connect here. Did Haber write anti-religious books? They seem as opposite as night and day to me. For one thing, Dawkins never invented evil war machines so I would think that would put him on a higher plane ethically speaking than Haber.

The whole notion, god is dead, science is king, well haber was the manifestation of that and it wasn't pretty.

Its just my opinion but i think Dawkins is a fascist who hasn't realised he's one yet... not saying he's anywhere near as bad a haber, but that type of thinking helped to create haber.

Originally posted by e4chris
not willfully killing people in the most in humane way possible, no you don't get that in business, you do not have to spray people with mustard gas if you work at a bank... he is his own unique level of evil, i don't think anyone can match him.

There's no killing in business? Come on, you can't be that naive.

For all their destructive potential, wars in the era of weapons of mass destruction are a lot less deadly than they used to be. Perhaps an axe or a longbow arrow does not seem as scary to you as Zyklon B or a hydrogen bomb, but you're just as dead with an axe through your skull.

Originally posted by KazetNagorra
There's no killing in business? Come on, you can't be that naive.

For all their destructive potential, wars in the era of weapons of mass destruction are a lot less deadly than they used to be. Perhaps an axe or a longbow arrow does not seem as scary to you as Zyklon B or a hydrogen bomb, but you're just as dead with an axe through your skull.

KN comparing haber to big business is like comparing bill gates with satan. There are still factories that haber designed but big business, govt , the army even did not buy into his chemical war ideas... But he does have a bad legacy. I think all the bad chemicals the US turned out in the 60s was habers trigger happy legacy.

lol that took 7 edits but it was not so polite when i first typed it...

Originally posted by e4chris
The whole notion, god is dead, science is king, well haber was the manifestation of that and it wasn't pretty.

Its just my opinion but i think Dawkins is a fascist who hasn't realised he's one yet... not saying he's anywhere near as bad a haber, but that type of thinking helped to create haber.

But the thing is, as far as we can see, god was never alive, at least one that had anything to do with this planet. The god is dead thing, did Haber specifically ascribe to that notion? Why don't you hate Einstein then, he is the one pointed out to Roosevelt the atomic bomb was possible. It killed hundreds of thousands of people in one fell swoop and left thousands more in misery, only to die a few weeks later from radiation poisoning.

My guess is both dudes thought their weapons would reduce the toll of war.

As far as I know, only Saddam used gas, and that one his own people, the Kurds. In the late 20th and in the 21st century.

Originally posted by sonhouse
But the thing is, as far as we can see, god was never alive, at least one that had anything to do with this planet. The god is dead thing, did Haber specifically ascribe to that notion? Why don't you hate Einstein then, he is the one pointed out to Roosevelt the atomic bomb was possible. It killed hundreds of thousands of people in one fell swoop and left t ...[text shortened]... dam used gas, and that one his own people, the Kurds. In the late 20th and in the 21st century.

its interesting haber and einstein kept up a correspondance ...

Originally posted by e4chris
I repeat haber was not a christian, nor was he a very good jew!!! either of those facts could not be more evident, you are a fool for arguing different, you can blame christianity for all sorts but definately not haber.

Re einstein, galileo, they are very different creatures, most science can have sinister repocussions, but haber worked almost exclusively ...[text shortened]... als, whether they like it or not. Academics can be wicked, there potential to be is under rated.

I repeat haber was not a christian,

I have just shown you evidence that he was Catholic and most Nazis including Hitler were Christian. This is merely the irrefutable recorded historical facts that they were Christian. How is that NOT evidence that they were Christian?
Please please just humor us for just one moment; show us the EVIDENCE he or Hitler was NOT Christian.....
Oh, and just saying they were not Christian because they didn't follow the teachings of the Bible doesn't do it -an evil Christian that hypercritically does not follow the teachings of the Bible is a Christian nevertheless just as bad but well-qualified scientist who doesn't adhere to scientific method is a scientist nevertheless -just a bad one.

Incidentally, even if he was not Christian, that would not prove anything. That's because you are attempting to use the common logical fallacy that if a evil person disbelieves X than disbelief in X is evil. The Nazis disbelieved the earth is flat -so disbelief in flat-earth is evil? But PLEASE PLEASE get you history straight!!! Stop denying history for propaganda reasons!!! its not right and its not fair!

It is the likes of Hitler that gives Christianity a bad reputation that it arguably at least partly deserves (because it is a delusional dogma and delusions are oxygen for evil) just as it is the likes of Haber that threatens to give science a bad reputation that it certainly does not deserve!

Originally posted by sonhouse
But the thing is, as far as we can see, god was never alive, at least one that had anything to do with this planet. The god is dead thing, did Haber specifically ascribe to that notion? Why don't you hate Einstein then, he is the one pointed out to Roosevelt the atomic bomb was possible. It killed hundreds of thousands of people in one fell swoop and left t ...[text shortened]... dam used gas, and that one his own people, the Kurds. In the late 20th and in the 21st century.

Both sides used poison gases in WW I. Italy used poison gas against Ethiopian tribesmen during Mussolini's invasion. Iraq used poison gas against Kurds and Iranians. Japan used chemical and biological agents against China during the 1930s. There may be other instances that are not as well known or publicised.

Originally posted by e4chris
1.One of habers famous quotes was 'death is death by any means' (he was a big advocate of chemical warfare) ,
2. he was a brilliant and sadistic chemist,
3. he is a good example of what an untaimed science can do,
4. All scientist should get a short module in ethics as part of there degree.
5. And tho it needn't be religious it would be hard to complete without a mention of religion.

1. Rules on how two states are allowed to kill each others people have always
seemed bizarre to me. The bloodier, dirtier and nastier war is the better - it
should deter a population from allowing its government to go to war.
(The Star Trek episode "A Taste of Armageddon" tackles this subject rather well.)

2. Sadistic? That seems unfounded.

3. Do you want to decree what scientists can and cannot do?

4. What nonsense! Scientists have to fight for grants, they do what they are
emplyed to do. And if they were schooled in ethics whose ethics should it be? Yours?

5. Religion has no monopoly on ethics as has been demonstrated countless times.


And finally I leave you with this quote from wiki
The food base of half of the current world population is based on the Haber-Bosch process

i don't want to get to argumentative in this thread .... but as posted at the start he invented the glass landmine, which was , specificaly, designed to be sadistic.

And he created this mindset in chemists that still exists to the present day; even the nice ones i met were way to flippant about toxic chemicals, there was a marked difference in attitude between chemists and the lab technicians as to what you'd define dangerous. Secondly as haber built organic chemistry around killing, and otherwise useful chemicals, anything which was not immediately lethal was used in industry, the legacy of this is chemicals like dioxin. you can swim in it and it won't do much harm..... but a year later... cfcs... a few years later (some of them were carcinogens too, but out of the bottle harmless). the 60s churned them out using a lot of habers knowledge.

Originally posted by e4chris
he invented the glass landmine, which was , specificaly, designed to be sadistic.

got any evidence?

Originally posted by e4chris

And he created this mindset in chemists that still exists to the present day; even the nice ones

You are crazy.