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  1. 02 Mar '13 15:20 / 2 edits
    Discuss!




    For me, If you read a book on him it will have you reaching for the bible so quick, if nothing else you could hit him on the head with it.

    I think Dawkins and co are very wrong to try and rule our religion when you have scientists like Haber (the inventor of the glass landmine, invisble to x ray, amoung other things) about.

    Your thoughts?
  2. Standard member Kepler
    Demon Duck
    02 Mar '13 17:58
    Originally posted by e4chris
    Discuss!




    For me, If you read a book on him it will have you reaching for the bible so quick, if nothing else you could hit him on the head with it.

    I think Dawkins and co are very wrong to try and rule our religion when you have scientists like Haber (the inventor of the glass landmine, invisble to x ray, amoung other things) about.

    Your thoughts?
    Haber was a nasty man. So were many others. Science doesn't have a monopoly on nasty men. There is plenty unpleasantness in that bible thing, genocide by flood, destroying whole cities, instructing the chosen people commit genocide etc. No, I am not inclined to reach for a book full of unpleasantness just because someone was a nasty man.
  3. 02 Mar '13 19:16 / 4 edits
    Originally posted by e4chris
    Discuss!




    For me, If you read a book on him it will have you reaching for the bible so quick, if nothing else you could hit him on the head with it.

    I think Dawkins and co are very wrong to try and rule our religion when you have scientists like Haber (the inventor of the glass landmine, invisble to x ray, amoung other things) about.

    Your thoughts?
    He was atypical for a modern scientist for he was theist and believed in the Bible.
    He was a Jew that converted to Catholicism:

    http://www.duhaime.org/LawMag/LawArticle-1094/Fritz-Haber-War-Criminal.aspx

    “...Haber then spent his life trying to hide his Jewish origins, converting to Catholicism and adopting all the mannerisms of a German scholar and gentleman, right down to the pince nez glasses.
    ...”

    So he was clearly a Christian and that means he believed in the Bible -unlike the likes of Einstein (who was agnostic) and the likes of Dawkins and most other good modern scientists who are almost all atheist or agnostic.

    So, if anything, the fact that Haber was a nasty evil man would make me want to burn the Bible, NOT support the Bible. It is precisely extremist christian people like him including RJHinds and Hitler (who was Christian) that confirm all the worst things of what I suspect about religion.
  4. 02 Mar '13 19:48
    It is common for religious people, especially if they have no background in science, to project their sectarian attitude towards science. But science is not a club you are a member of. I don't have a reason to defend what other scientists have said or done just because I am a scientist too. Science doesn't have prophets or an unchangeable dogma.
  5. Standard member wolfgang59
    Infidel
    02 Mar '13 22:17
    Originally posted by e4chris
    Discuss!




    For me, If you read a book on him it will have you reaching for the bible so quick, if nothing else you could hit him on the head with it.

    I think Dawkins and co are very wrong to try and rule our religion when you have scientists like Haber (the inventor of the glass landmine, invisble to x ray, amoung other things) about.

    Your thoughts?
    Discuss what?

    A scientist invents something you don't like and you turn to god?
    (And why a particular god?)

    Science and religion have nothing to do with each other - keep them apart.
  6. 03 Mar '13 04:59 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by humy
    He was atypical for a modern scientist for he was theist and believed in the Bible.
    He was a Jew that converted to Catholicism:

    http://www.duhaime.org/LawMag/LawArticle-1094/Fritz-Haber-War-Criminal.aspx

    “...Haber then spent his life trying to hide his Jewish origins, converting to Catholicism and adopting all the mannerisms of a German scholar and gent ...[text shortened]... d Hitler (who was Christian) that confirm all the worst things of what I suspect about religion.
    One of habers famous quotes was 'death is death by any means' (he was a big advocate of chemical warfare) I doubt you will find that in the bible, he was a brilliant and sadistic chemist, his religion was trivial, christ it had to be, it just was there to fit in. The nazis were not christian, they just pretended to be for a while to get support.

    Wolfgang, regarding 'keep them apart' I have to disagree he is a good example of what an untaimed science can do, the story of his wife is tragic, shows what he evoked. All scientist should get a short module in ethics as part of there degree. And tho it needn't be religious it would be hard to complete without a mention of religion.
  7. Standard member Kepler
    Demon Duck
    03 Mar '13 07:24
    Originally posted by e4chris
    One of habers famous quotes was 'death is death by any means' (he was a big advocate of chemical warfare) I doubt you will find that in the bible, he was a brilliant and sadistic chemist, his religion was trivial, christ it had to be, it just was there to fit in. The nazis were not christian, they just pretended to be for a while to get support.

    Wolfgang, ...[text shortened]... And tho it needn't be religious it would be hard to complete without a mention of religion.
    Ethics, fine, but why should we all become god botherers just because Haber was a nasty man? I notice you do not rail against Einstein who's theory of relativity gives us the E=mc^2 basis for nuclear weapons or Galileo who first made ballistics an accurate predictive science. There is potential good and evil in all science, you cannot specify beforehand that you will only discover the good. Haber was evil, but he needed other evil men to apply his discoveries.
  8. 03 Mar '13 08:09
    Originally posted by e4chris
    One of habers famous quotes was 'death is death by any means' (he was a big advocate of chemical warfare)
    I for one, have always found the whole idea of 'rules of war' to be somewhat ridiculous. I am actually of the opinion that we should try to avoid killing rather than trying to pretend that if we do it 'nicely' then its OK.

    I doubt you will find that in the bible,
    No, the Bible has far worse things in it.

    he was a brilliant and sadistic chemist, his religion was trivial, christ it had to be,
    So, you attempt to justify it? Is the religion of Muslim suicide bombers equally trivial?

    The nazis were not christian, they just pretended to be for a while to get support.
    Do you have evidence for this? Or is it speculation based on your desire to distance them from your religion?

    All scientist should get a short module in ethics as part of there degree. And tho it needn't be religious it would be hard to complete without a mention of religion.
    All students should get a short (or long) module on ethics. If anything, it is the politicians, bankers and top businessmen that really need it far more than the scientists. But I would keep religion out of it. Religions in general have a somewhat warped ethical system that I would not want taught to anybody.
  9. 03 Mar '13 10:34 / 7 edits
    Originally posted by e4chris
    One of habers famous quotes was 'death is death by any means' (he was a big advocate of chemical warfare) I doubt you will find that in the bible, he was a brilliant and sadistic chemist, his religion was trivial, christ it had to be, it just was there to fit in. The nazis were not christian, they just pretended to be for a while to get support.

    Wolfgang, And tho it needn't be religious it would be hard to complete without a mention of religion.
    I doubt you will find that in the bible,

    Since when have evil Christians ever cared what is REALLY in the Bible? Evil Christians are evil HYPOCRITES!
    Yep, an evil Christian hypocrite who reads the Bible and murders millions really makes me what to reach for the Bible
    The Bible is a useful tool for evil people.

    The nazis were not christian, they just pretended to be for a while to get support


    In an English translation of Mein Kampf (from http://www.magister.msk.ru/library/politica/hitla002.ht to be more precise) one can find the following two statements out of several that most clearly show that Hitler was a theist and definitely not an atheist:

    1, “ it was by the Will of God that men were made of a certain bodily shape, were given their natures and their faculties. Whoever destroys His work wages war against God's Creation and God's Will."
    2, “ God does not follow the principle of granting freedom to a nation of cowards”

    these references to God were not ever later deleted out of Mein Kampf after they 'served their purpose'.
    also:

    "We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out." -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933

    Hitler was also baptised as a Roman Catholic. In fact, there is overwhelming evidence that not only Hitler but also the vast majority of Nazis, with no really notable exceptions, were CHRISTIAN.
    There is no evidence of any kind of some kind of mass conspiracy that they all merely 'pretended' to be Christian. The fact that they, just like so many evil Christians in this modern day, conveniently and selectively ignored the more peaceful messages from the Bible merely confirms that many Christians can be and often are EVIL HYPOCRITES.
    I challenge you to show evidence to counter these historical fact!
  10. 03 Mar '13 14:06
    Originally posted by humy
    I doubt you will find that in the bible,

    Since when have evil Christians ever cared what is REALLY in the Bible? Evil Christians are evil HYPOCRITES!
    Yep, an evil Christian hypocrite who reads the Bible and murders millions really makes me what to reach for the Bible
    The Bible is a useful tool for evil people.

    [quote] The nazis ...[text shortened]... e EVIL HYPOCRITES.
    I challenge you to show evidence to counter these historical fact!
    I repeat haber was not a christian, nor was he a very good jew!!! either of those facts could not be more evident, you are a fool for arguing different, you can blame christianity for all sorts but definately not haber.

    Re einstein, galileo, they are very different creatures, most science can have sinister repocussions, but haber worked almost exclusively on them whilst others it was fallout from good reaserch. I remember in my uni, you did get a few very nasty very arrogant chemistry lecturers, whos academia somehow gave them superiority... they need a lesson about jesus or at least someone with morals, whether they like it or not. Academics can be wicked, there potential to be is under rated.
  11. 03 Mar '13 14:22
    Originally posted by e4chris
    I repeat haber was not a christian, nor was he a very good jew!!! either of those facts could not be more evident, you are a fool for arguing different, you can blame christianity for all sorts but definately not haber.

    Re einstein, galileo, they are very different creatures, most science can have sinister repocussions, but haber worked almost exclusively ...[text shortened]... als, whether they like it or not. Academics can be wicked, there potential to be is under rated.
    Whether Haber was religious or not is irrelevant. You don't have to respect Haber's views or value his inventions if you're a scientist, nor does recognizing Haber's flaws imply that subscribing to religious values follows logically, nor does that imply that one should subscribe to Christian values in particular - and there isn't even a set of well-defined Christian morals apart from ones shared almost universally by mankind. Judge people for what they do and the ideas they subscribe to. There are plenty of scientists and plenty of christians who have done terrible things.
  12. 03 Mar '13 14:39
    Originally posted by KazetNagorra
    Whether Haber was religious or not is irrelevant. You don't have to respect Haber's views or value his inventions if you're a scientist, nor does recognizing Haber's flaws imply that subscribing to religious values follows logically, nor does that imply that one should subscribe to Christian values in particular - and there isn't even a set of we ...[text shortened]... to. There are plenty of scientists and plenty of christians who have done terrible things.
    If you study chemistry, chances are you will read a books worth on haber, with no mention of what an evil man he was, long before you will read a page on ethics, thats wrong, it put me off the subject, made me want to go into business as soon as i left.
  13. 03 Mar '13 15:01
    Originally posted by e4chris
    If you study chemistry, chances are you will read a books worth on haber, with no mention of what an evil man he was, long before you will read a page on ethics, thats wrong, it put me off the subject, made me want to go into business as soon as i left.
    Yes, it's a good thing you won't find anything unethical in business!
  14. Standard member sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    03 Mar '13 16:08
    Originally posted by e4chris
    If you study chemistry, chances are you will read a books worth on haber, with no mention of what an evil man he was, long before you will read a page on ethics, thats wrong, it put me off the subject, made me want to go into business as soon as i left.
    I read the wiki on him but I didn't see much there about his bad side. What are his views? Nazi superiority thing?
  15. 03 Mar '13 17:04 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    I read the wiki on him but I didn't see much there about his bad side. What are his views? Nazi superiority thing?
    Yes you don't find it in the science books, read up on his wife, that might give you a picture. He was much much worse then a nazi.