1. Standard memberThequ1ck
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    22 Jul '11 21:52
    I'm no physicist but this layman's explanation of an alternative
    to the mysterious Higgs particle makes really good sense.

    http://www.higgs-boson.org/

    Anyone with a more serious understanding of Physics care to
    poke holes in it?
  2. Standard memberSoothfast
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    23 Jul '11 05:45
    Originally posted by Thequ1ck
    I'm no physicist but this layman's explanation of an alternative
    to the mysterious Higgs particle makes really good sense.

    http://www.higgs-boson.org/

    Anyone with a more serious understanding of Physics care to
    poke holes in it?
    Just a little ways in there's this: "Curiously, to know the volume of atoms, we take into account orbitals ...which is a nonsense!"

    But it isn't nonsense. An atom is two things taken together: the nucleus (protons and neutrons) and the electrons. The electrons form something like a negatively charged "cloud" around the nucleus which technically is as big as the universe, just as the gravitational field of Earth doesn't really end anywhere and is as big as the universe. The volume of an atom is calculated out to a certain distance from the nucleus based on a largely arbitrary cutoff, I think.

    How about the volume of Jupiter that is mentioned? Jupiter is gaseous, so where do we decide to draw the line and say "Jupiter ends here" and so go about determining its volume? Well, it's done the same way as it's done for an atom: there's going to be an arbitrary cutoff somewhere. Thus, a measure of the volume of Jupiter plus the Sun will be a little bit fuzzy, just as it is for an atom.

    But I think I know what the article is driving at. It's as far as I got, so far. 😉
  3. Bucharest
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    23 Jul '11 07:38
    Theoretical commentary:
    Can we do anything useful with this theory? Build new devices, better GPS, better communication, predict something new, anything? At least theoretically, does it have any useful advantage over existing theories? Is it simpler overall, not just on the chosen aspects? If not it is pretty much just another useless cool model. People are very creative, there are lots of these. Claiming that nature is like this is untestable for this theories because they are not different in experimentation compared to the established theories. Living details vague and able to somehow "match" as needed helps a lot in keeping the theory consistent but reduces a lot its usefulness (more of a fairy-tale rather than concrete physics).

    Practical commentary:
    No scientist seems to get him seriously. He seems obsessed with popular recognition not scientific one (more popular writer than scientist). It is more an exercise of imagining things differently rather than understanding new things. He spammed (as claimed by himself) 7000 scientists. He has patents on a theory. Real scientists tend to look different, obsessed amateurs/cheaters look alike.

    I am not qualified for the math and physics part, maybe some trained physicist can put holes in it. But it seems that it wouldn't matter much if there aren't any.
  4. Standard memberThequ1ck
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    23 Jul '11 09:08
    Originally posted by Soothfast
    Just a little ways in there's this: "Curiously, to know the volume of atoms, we take into account orbitals ...which is a nonsense!"

    But it isn't nonsense. An atom is two things taken together: the nucleus (protons and neutrons) and the electrons. The electrons form something like a negatively charged "cloud" around the nucleus which technically is as ...[text shortened]... ut I think I know what the article is driving at. It's as far as I got, so far. 😉
    Interesting insight. I'm not sure I would agree with an atom theoretically being
    the size of the universe. Can you explain how you interpret this please?

    Electrons can pop in and out of existance where-ever they please and so their
    probability cloud does extend to any place in the universe but they have a much
    much higher probability of being at a well defined distance from the nucleus.
    This article seems to avoid this issue by concentrating on 'closed' volumes.
    Of course, any measure of the volume of Jupiter or the sun will be fuzzy, they're
    both entirely unpredictable due to complexity of chaos within and around them.
    Am I missing your point?
  5. Standard memberThequ1ck
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    23 Jul '11 09:15
    Originally posted by Mihai
    Theoretical commentary:
    Can we do anything useful with this theory? Build new devices, better GPS, better communication, predict something new, anything? At least theoretically, does it have any useful advantage over existing theories? Is it simpler overall, not just on the chosen aspects? If not it is pretty much just another useless cool model. People are v ...[text shortened]... hysicist can put holes in it. But it seems that it wouldn't matter much if there aren't any.
    Well, by turning an argument on its head, we get at least an opportunity to
    look at it from another angle.

    Consider colour. Is black a colour or an abscence of colour? Are then colours, colours
    or an absence of black?

    This theory does seem simpler than other theories to me but then that's
    because it's the only one I can remotely understand. If it is simpler then
    shouldn't we then progress and test it?

    There's a fuller article here with some easy to understand Math's
    http://www.spacetime-model.com/files/mass_physicists.pdf

    The author appears to be a French Engineering student with mild qualifications
    but then Einstein wasn't exactly dripping with academia.
  6. Cape Town
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    23 Jul '11 09:331 edit
    Originally posted by Thequ1ck
    Consider colour. Is black a colour or an abscence of colour? Are then colours, colours
    or an absence of black?
    That's more about definitions than anything else. (and the best definition depends on whether you are discussing the color of light or the color of an object (which is really a measure of what light is absorbed and what light is reflected).
    There is no such thing as a beam of black light, but an object can be black.
  7. Standard memberThequ1ck
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    23 Jul '11 09:55
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    That's more about definitions than anything else. (and the best definition depends on whether you are discussing the color of light or the color of an object (which is really a measure of what light is absorbed and what light is reflected).
    There is no such thing as a beam of black light, but an object can be black.
    Sure there is. You're just describing colour in the context of time moving
    forwards. If it were to run backwards, we'd be calling then beams of black,
    or kcalb. Just definition? Maybe.

    However, light passing through a material with a negative refractive index
    appears to cause light to travel backwards in time (one definition). So that
    it appears, back where it started before setting off.

    http://www.cmth.ph.ic.ac.uk/photonics/Newphotonics/pdf/physworapr00.PDF
  8. Standard memberPalynka
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    23 Jul '11 18:07
    Interesting website. His reinterpretation of gravity seems very appealing and intuitive...
  9. Standard memberSoothfast
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    23 Jul '11 21:27
    Originally posted by Thequ1ck
    Interesting insight. I'm not sure I would agree with an atom theoretically being
    the size of the universe. Can you explain how you interpret this please?

    Electrons can pop in and out of existance where-ever they please and so their
    probability cloud does extend to any place in the universe but they have a much
    much higher probability of being at a wel ...[text shortened]... y unpredictable due to complexity of chaos within and around them.
    Am I missing your point?
    You answered your own question: electrons pop in and out in a probability cloud, and the probability that an electron will be in a given position will decrease -- but never quite be zero -- the further out from the nucleus we go. Obviously, though, we can expect the electrons to be within an extremely short distance from the nucleus 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the time.
  10. Standard memberThequ1ck
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    24 Jul '11 11:29
    Originally posted by Soothfast
    You answered your own question: electrons pop in and out in a probability cloud, and the probability that an electron will be in a given position will decrease -- but never quite be zero -- the further out from the nucleus we go. Obviously, though, we can expect the electrons to be within an extremely short distance from the nucleus 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the time.
    The electrons are irrelevant in this theory. In fact the article is based on
    their irrelevance.
  11. Joined
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    24 Jul '11 12:48
    Originally posted by Thequ1ck
    I'm no physicist but this layman's explanation of an alternative
    to the mysterious Higgs particle makes really good sense.

    http://www.higgs-boson.org/

    Anyone with a more serious understanding of Physics care to
    poke holes in it?
    Not a professional physicist, but to be honest, from the style of the page I would expect that neither is he. It consists mainly of statements of opinion not based on evidence.
    The whole basis for his argument is that 'In physics, it is not acceptable to have two different definitions of "VOLUME"'. Well, let's start right there: why not? It's acceptable to have two related, but different definitions of "spin", for use in distinct contexts. Even in classical physics, it is perfectly OK to have two related, but different definitions of "wave" (longitudinal and transversal). Why does this bloke think that it is any less acceptable to have two different, but related definitions of "volume" for use in distinct contexts?

    Richard
  12. Standard memberThequ1ck
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    24 Jul '11 13:271 edit
    Originally posted by Shallow Blue
    Not a professional physicist, but to be honest, from the style of the page I would expect that neither is he. It consists mainly of statements of opinion not based on evidence.
    The whole basis for his argument is that 'In physics, it is not acceptable to have two different definitions of "VOLUME"'. Well, let's start right there: why not? It's a ferent, but related definitions of "volume" for use in distinct contexts?

    Richard
    The definition of 'volume' as given by Wiki with respect to physical volume
    is this.

    "Volume is the quantity of three-dimensional space enclosed by some closed boundary, for example, the space that a substance (solid, liquid, gas, or plasma) or shape occupies or contains"

    The authors point is that an atom is not a 'closed volume'. The only 'closed'
    volume within in an atom is the nucleus.

    With regards to spin. 'spin' in physics is a shortening of 'spin direction'.
  13. Standard memberThequ1ck
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    24 Jul '11 18:29
    Originally posted by Palynka
    Interesting website. His reinterpretation of gravity seems very appealing and intuitive...
    Yes, I think it is a good starting block to contrast some of the current,
    more complex understandings with.
  14. Standard memberSoothfast
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    24 Jul '11 21:49
    Originally posted by Thequ1ck
    The electrons are irrelevant in this theory. In fact the article is based on
    their irrelevance.
    As I said, I haven't yet read the whole thing. For it to have a chance of being a serious model, however, there would have to be some mathematics to back it up. Maybe there's a link to it somewhere in the site.
  15. Standard memberThequ1ck
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    25 Jul '11 08:36
    Originally posted by Soothfast
    As I said, I haven't yet read the whole thing. For it to have a chance of being a serious model, however, there would have to be some mathematics to back it up. Maybe there's a link to it somewhere in the site.
    As Above
    http://www.cmth.ph.ic.ac.uk/photonics/Newphotonics/pdf/physworapr00.PDF
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