1. Subscribersonhouse
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    18 May '10 16:22
    http://www.physorg.com/news193400764.html

    The idea is any car with an rf clicker can be hacked by signals that force their way into the computer system, doing neat things like clamping on the brakes at an inopportune time, like when you are on a freeway doing 80 in a line of traffic and causing a 20 car pileup.
    It also sounds like a good mystery novel plot, murderer hacks into car computer on a car known to travel the pacific coast highway, highway 1, in California for instance, and at just the right curve, hit the accelerator, deactivate the brakes and the car goes over a thousand foot cliff, 'Yes officer, I saw the whole thing, not a car in sight, it just went over the edge'.....
  2. Standard memberjoneschr
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    18 May '10 17:312 edits
    <delete double post>
  3. Standard memberjoneschr
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    18 May '10 17:32
    There's a big difference between sabotaging a car with a RF key-less entry, and sabotaging it like these guys did, but plugging into the car's data port.

    I guess this article will sound ominous to the computer-inept, but to me it doesn't sound a whole lot different than opening the hood and planting a bomb. There are a lot of ways to sabotage a car - it's not like this is really any more practical than other methods.

    In fact, I think you could argue it's a lot less practical -- a lot more people could build a bomb or cut the brake lines than figure out how to insert bad packets on a network.

    The "Beware of Hackers Controlling your Automobile" title for the article seems a little ridiculous.
  4. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    18 May '10 17:35
    Any chance of a connection to the Toyota recalls?
  5. Cape Town
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    19 May '10 08:42
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    The idea is any car with an rf clicker can be hacked by signals that force their way into the computer system,
    As pointed out by joneschr, it doesn't say that at all.
    The rf key system is used for locking doors not putting on brakes. In most cars at least it should be impossible to get at the brakes via the key system.
  6. silicon valley
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    19 May '10 09:28
    the bits needed to send the few messages allowed from your keyfob to your car are minimal, even with authentication.

    nothing like the amount of traffic needed to take over a computer.

    no reason for the protocol to support that amount of traffic.

    think about it, could you take over a car by sending Lock/Unlock/Panic signals to it?

    also, ABS (Antilock Braking System) is controlled by an additional CPU, the keyfob won't be talking to it, ever.
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    19 May '10 09:29
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    http://www.physorg.com/news193400764.html

    The idea is any car with an rf clicker can be hacked by signals that force their way into the computer system, doing neat things like clamping on the brakes at an inopportune time, like when you are on a freeway doing 80 in a line of traffic and causing a 20 car pileup.
    It also sounds like a good mystery novel ...[text shortened]... iff, 'Yes officer, I saw the whole thing, not a car in sight, it just went over the edge'.....
    The date doesn't say that it is a April Fouls joke, but look at the name in the article: Stefan Savage. When rearranging the letters you get "Safest Van Age". Doesn't this say something?

    No, I don't believe this. I can safely drive my van until it ages naturally.
  8. Subscribersonhouse
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    19 May '10 09:59
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    The date doesn't say that it is a April Fouls joke, but look at the name in the article: Stefan Savage. When rearranging the letters you get "Safest Van Age". Doesn't this say something?

    No, I don't believe this. I can safely drive my van until it ages naturally.
    I was thinking if it was possible to take over car comps with rf signals, police would have a great way to stop escaping bank robbers and such. I think there are already EMP devices that can disable car comps already, I read a story about a skateboard sized device that races ahead and goes under the car and sends a huge EMP pulse into the engine compartment, killing the computer and the car no longer runs.
  9. silicon valley
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    19 May '10 10:15
    EMP would scramble everything 🙂, not sneakily silently disable anything, but i guess you got that 🙂.
  10. Cape Town
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    20 May '10 12:57
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    I was thinking if it was possible to take over car comps with rf signals, police would have a great way to stop escaping bank robbers and such. I think there are already EMP devices that can disable car comps already, I read a story about a skateboard sized device that races ahead and goes under the car and sends a huge EMP pulse into the engine compartment, killing the computer and the car no longer runs.
    The police have found spike strips to be fairly effective, the only problem being getting in front of the criminal. So One would think a radio controlled skateboard with spikes on the top would be cheaper to build than an EMP skateboard. But it might need replacing more often.
  11. Cape Town
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    20 May '10 13:02
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    The date doesn't say that it is a April Fouls joke, but look at the name in the article: Stefan Savage. When rearranging the letters you get "Safest Van Age". Doesn't this say something?

    No, I don't believe this. I can safely drive my van until it ages naturally.
    The article doesn't really say anything that is unreasonable or unlikely. It was this thread that invented the 'take over a car with an rf key' idea.
    If I studied car electrics and plugged my device into your car prior to you driving off, I guarantee I could put on the brakes remotely (if your brakes are in any way electrically operated). I wouldn't need to do any hacking whatsoever - simply make a device that applies the right voltage in the right place.
  12. Subscribersonhouse
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    20 May '10 13:451 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    The police have found spike strips to be fairly effective, the only problem being getting in front of the criminal. So One would think a radio controlled skateboard with spikes on the top would be cheaper to build than an EMP skateboard. But it might need replacing more often.
    One weakness of the skateboard EMP idea is this: What if the crim is driving a diesel? There are no spark plugs, the engine, especially older ones, have practically no engine electronics, therefore an EMP pulse would have no effect. For instance, even fuel pumps are mechanical in those older diesels so EMP could not even stop the flow of fuel.
  13. silicon valley
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    20 May '10 15:43
    new ones are probably computer-controlled for emission requirements.

    old ones, head shot through the rear window, or go for the tires.

    a grill mounted robotic sharpshooter could do that with a teleoperator, freeing the officer on the scene to drive the patrol car.
  14. Subscribersonhouse
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    20 May '10 19:185 edits
    Originally posted by zeeblebot
    new ones are probably computer-controlled for emission requirements.

    old ones, head shot through the rear window, or go for the tires.

    a grill mounted robotic sharpshooter could do that with a teleoperator, freeing the officer on the scene to drive the patrol car.
    It would take the warrant of a terrorist to go to that much trouble, the average convenience store robbery would not get that much attention. Remember OJ? They just followed him around for a few hours, no shots fired because they didn't want to hit civilians. Well that was what they said anyway. If I knew about the EMP thing and was planning a bank robbery or some such, I would make sure I was driving an old diesel.
    Usually those involved in that kind of crime would get away before the cops even knew what happened anyway so first the car must be identified to show it was involved in some crime.
    My guess is it would be mainly useful to capture or stop the car of a drunk driver hell bent on escaping the law, you probably have seen the videos of the cop chase shows where a drunk tries to evade the cops, usually ending in a crash. They would probably like to stop the car before the perp kills someone by accident.
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    20 May '10 19:25
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    The article doesn't really say anything that is unreasonable or unlikely. It was this thread that invented the 'take over a car with an rf key' idea.
    If I studied car electrics and plugged my device into your car prior to you driving off, I guarantee I could put on the brakes remotely (if your brakes are in any way electrically operated). I wouldn't need ...[text shortened]... hacking whatsoever - simply make a device that applies the right voltage in the right place.
    We are talking about almost new cars here, aren't we? My 10 year old heap doesn't count, does it?
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