On the evolution of ID seduction:

Originally posted by DeepThought
Well, you have to ask about how a designer could operate. I did give an argument about this in the evolution of eyes thread. Essentially the options for a designer are God, a god, or aliens. By God I mean the Christian God, or at least something similar. By little ´g´ god I mean either a divine entity who has god-like powers or unbelievably advanced ...[text shortened]... why bother?

Also if it isn´t God, you then have the question of how the designer came about.

Who the designer is, is another question that you may not even have
to bother with, if it can be shown one wasn't required. That is why
again, I say it is another subject.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Who the designer is, is another question that you may not even have
to bother with, if it can be shown one wasn't required. That is why
again, I say it is another subject.
Kelly

I notice you put a subconscious emphasis on that word IF it can be shown such a designer isn't needed. It leaves me with the definite impression you think such a dilemma will never occur.

Originally posted by sonhouse
I notice you put a subconscious emphasis on that word IF it can be shown such a designer isn't needed. It leaves me with the definite impression you think such a dilemma will never occur.

If you can prove all life can spring up without intentional design
through intent I'd say you may win both debates, creation and ID.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
If you can prove all life can spring up without intentional design
through intent I'd say you may win both debates, creation and ID.
Kelly

suppose we all had the same lack of understanding of physics as you do, then we wouldn’t be able to currently prove that the microscopic geometric design of a snow flake can spring up without ‘intentional’ design. So should we then conclude that an intelligence was behind it? 😛
Or should we conclude that just because we don’t fully understand something does NOT mean that an intelligence was behind it?

Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
suppose we all had the same lack of understanding of physics as you do, then we wouldn’t be able to currently prove that the microscopic geometric design of a snow flake can spring up without ‘intentional’ design. So should we then conclude that an intelligence was behind it? 😛
Or should we conclude that just because we don’t fully understand something does NOT mean that an intelligence was behind it?

It used to be early mankind thought lightning and thunder were god's battling but we got over that one, just like we will get over, as a race, this obsession with some god-like being supernaturally creating life. It's much the same idea, attributing natural forces to supernatural causes. Does anyone still think earthquakes are caused by angry gods?

Originally posted by sonhouse
Does anyone still think earthquakes are caused by angry gods?

Yes, it's a punishment from god.
Like AIDS is a punishment for the immorality of homosexuals.
Like WTC is a punishment for the depraved America.
Even like a miscarriage is a punishment for the young woman not going to the church every sunday.
We've heard it all. In all religions.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Yes, it's a punishment from god.
Like AIDS is a punishment for the immorality of homosexuals.
Like WTC is a punishment for the depraved America.
Even like a miscarriage is a punishment for the young woman not going to the church every sunday.
We've heard it all. In all religions.

Again, you seem to be hell bent on bringing into the science forum
God at every chance!
Kelly

I make the same comment as you usually do: I just answer a question, nothing more. It works for you, it must work for me too.

The diffenence is that my posting makes sense, not yours.

Originally posted by DeepThought
Well, you have to ask about how a designer could operate. I did give an argument about this in the evolution of eyes thread. Essentially the options for a designer are God, a god, or aliens. By God I mean the Christian God, or at least something similar. By little ´g´ god I mean either a divine entity who has god-like powers or unbelievably advanced ...[text shortened]... why bother?

Also if it isn´t God, you then have the question of how the designer came about.

It is no different than finding a book on any topic, if the book has
text written out in it, with information in the book, did the book
just evolve over time, or was it written? Do you have to know
that people write books to make that jump in saying the book had
to be authored, can’t you just see all the information in the book
and know it couldn’t have just happened due to some intent-less
process in the universe.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
It is no different than finding a book on any topic, if the book has
text written out in it, with information in the book, did the book
just evolve over time, or was it written? Do you have to know
that people write books to make that jump in saying the book had
to be authored, can’t you just see all the information in the book
and know it couldn’t have just happened due to some intent-less
process in the universe.
Kelly

That is a ludicrous comparison. Books are evidently artificial. Life is not like a book.

Originally posted by DeepThought
That is a ludicrous comparison. Books are evidently artificial. Life is not like a book.

Again, the process is what I've been stressing.
Artificial, I suppect again you know the orgin so you leap to that word,
yet if you were to stubble upon one without your background
knowledge could you see the need for a designer, because you
just see design with intent was required, or would you automatically
assume a designer-less process would be the default reason for the
book?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Again, the process is what I've been stressing.
Artificial, I suppect again you know the orgin so you leap to that word,
yet if you were to stubble upon one without your background
knowledge could you see the need for a designer, because you
just see design with intent was required, or would you automatically
assume a designer-less process would be the default reason for the
book?
Kelly

So tell me about your theoretical not god designer of the universe. What characteristics would it have? I assume it would have to have supernatural powers, do you agree?

Originally posted by sonhouse
So tell me about your theoretical not god designer of the universe. What characteristics would it have? I assume it would have to have supernatural powers, do you agree?

You define it, again the process of evolution is the topic I am trying
to discuss.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
You define it, again the process of evolution is the topic I am trying
to discuss.
Kelly

Not sure what you mean by that, 'the process of evolution'. Are you saying evolution cannot happen without some guiding principle, designer or whatever? Can you expand on that theme?

Originally posted by sonhouse
Not sure what you mean by that, 'the process of evolution'. Are you saying evolution cannot happen without some guiding principle, designer or whatever? Can you expand on that theme?

I'm saying without some force guiding the process along, the tendency
will be do degrade over time not become more functionally complex.
While building a structure you not only have get the proper material,
you need to get them in the proper quantities, you have to build them
in the proper order and so on.
Kelly