1. Standard memberTRACKHEAD21
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    29 Sep '04 17:27
    Wonder if that title will attract anyone lol. First I apologize for the way I went about things and no no one is making me apologize my level of pissoffdom has just lowered a tiny bit so now I can be more rational and say what I should have said. Eye I still want to know about this 2 hour analysis you spoke of, PM me back as I dont want talk of it on the thread I'll tell you what I did and want to know what you did. And I do have another suggestion which a mod said I should mention. Its the downloading on exe file that would prevent any of us from running an engine while we are of the site. I mentioned this before on uchess and someone said but that would mean an extra download. Would this extra donload be worth it to know that you are really playing who you think you are. I also joked when I originally said something about it that it would be interesting to watch the ratings of everyone and how some would suddenly change if such a thing was incorporated. What would you all think of this?? I had said beofre that I rmeember such a thing on yahoo though I dont know if they still have it but I know that no programs could be open in the background while you were in the chess room. Oh and for those of you talking about proof this and proof that I know I said it in a PM to a mod but not sure if I said it on here. I do not want to see any rhp players booted for using engines I think its stupid, aall I want is for engine use to cease to exist on the site. Now I know accusations are being slung all over because of the metallica person but just forget that crap. Everyone who saw the list some people saw names they thought could have been doing it or names they wondered in the back of their heads about, I'm sure plenty of people wonder about me even and everyone knows peopl they wonder about who werent listed. The fact is this, short of a peson saying I use an engine burn me at the stake nothing else is accepted as 100% . A mod mentioned a panel but I think we know that that has flaws as shown on anoher site. Basically if you play too good you must be using an engine. The fact reamins this is a problem here and we can deny it if we want to but it simply is a problem and that is a 100% fact. The program I spoke of, mathematically about 97% correct, rounded down a bit, I suck at programming but I am the math genius in the couple hehe. What can be done? Yes yes I went about it the wrong way with my original post and I apologize for that, yes my gf used my name to play and some who thought they beat of me really didn't and no I didn't say here sweetie play my game against this 1700 player and see how you do. I want to be on the top and simply wouldnt do that because as someone put it earlier I am arrogant. I'm that way when it comes to two things I'm good at, one is track and the other is chess, maybe bridge too but I'm onl a great defensive player with that and my partner is the other half of the great defense. I don' use an engine because realistically I'm so arrogant that I think I can do beter on my own. So trying your best to forget about the list what can be done? This is something that seems to be avoided on here, something not addressed by the admins except with a, well we need 100% proof did the person admit this. I posted the list mostly because I am pissed and my clan leaders and members know how pissed I am because firstly I sent a message to everyone in my clans with a list o players I don't want to play, said they could avoid them if they choose but I definately am.Screw who's using what, no one should using anything. I found a nice relaxing chess site, the only one that would load on my work PC and I have fun playing but then suddenly I start running into possible engine after engine. Yeah I beat every person on that list I made that I played except one thats on going but I still find myself pissed that I played anyone that may have been using an engine at all, win lose or draw. If you have so dumb insult to make PM me don't put crap on the thread. Just say what you think could or should be done to help this problem go away anything else is just a waste of words.
  2. Standard memberTRACKHEAD21
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    29 Sep '04 17:30
    By the way I am also sorry for anything not readable I kinda gave my monitor to my gf after I accidentally broke hers and am using my tv as a monitor . Generally I cant read thing posted to me in a game or most of whats in the forum. It looklike chicken scratch to me. To really read something I have to copy it to word and incrase the font to about 14.
  3. Aberdeen, Scotland
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    29 Sep '04 17:49
    yes an exe file is not a bad idea, but for every program there is someone who can crack it and keep on cheating if they so desire.
  4. Standard memberTRACKHEAD21
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    29 Sep '04 18:04
    Originally posted by pendejo
    yes an exe file is not a bad idea, but for every program there is someone who can crack it and keep on cheating if they so desire.
    maybe so but it would be some type of deterant while right now there are none except if you use an engine just dont so so. I mean come one what is this, the army? Dont ask dont tell?? So many other things are worked on on this site and yet this one thing which seems have been a problem for a long time has never been addressed? Nothing done except to those who admit they use a program?
  5. Aberdeen, Scotland
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    29 Sep '04 18:11
    yes i see your point, it IS a deterant.

    my point made clearly and after some thought is that there will always be a way around cheating. for example, if it stops chess software running in the background whilst on this site, anyone could just see the move, close the window and then open it again when the engine moves. that was after a few minutes thinking about it but im sure there would be other non-programming solutions to getting round this exe file (which i would be in favour for if done well)
  6. Not Kansas
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    29 Sep '04 18:12
    I don't see how you can say for sure whether someone is using an engine during a game or not. As an experiment, I ran a just-completed game through my old slow computer, running Crafty, and guess what? Crafty really liked some of my moves! The moves he liked were ones I thought were bloody obvious when I was playing the game, but I must stress; I didn't/don't use the engine *during* game play. I'll post the game if anyone is interested but it's pretty average.
  7. Standard memberTRACKHEAD21
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    29 Sep '04 18:21
    Originally posted by pendejo
    yes i see your point, it IS a deterant.

    my point made clearly and after some thought is that there will always be a way around cheating. for example, if it stops chess software running in the background whilst on this site, anyone could just see the move, close the window and then open it again when the engine moves. that was after a few minutes thinki ...[text shortened]... ramming solutions to getting round this exe file (which i would be in favour for if done well)
    yes true, it works with yahoo because the games are timed, if you leave you'll loss the game. Another thought I had though was pgn and fen. I know its nice to have to analyse your finished games but could these two things be gotten rid of? Without that a person would have to manually input a board position into an engine to cheat, throw about 100 games at them and laugh as they become too frustrated to continue to try to play that way. While there would be some hardcore people who want to cheat so bad that they will put themselves through that kind of agony that could by itself possibly be a very good deterant.
  8. Standard memberTRACKHEAD21
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    29 Sep '04 18:22
    Originally posted by KneverKnight
    I don't see how you can say for sure whether someone is using an engine during a game or not. As an experiment, I ran a just-completed game through my old slow computer, running Crafty, and guess what? Crafty really liked some of my moves! The moves he liked were ones I thought were bloody obvious when I was playing the game, but I must stress; I didn ...[text shortened]... engine *during* game play. I'll post the game if anyone is interested but it's pretty average.
    Yeah but there is a difference between agreeing with a couple moves here and there and agreeing with an entire game after the opening moves are finished.
  9. Donationbelgianfreak
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    29 Sep '04 18:48
    This thread has been moved here because it didn't belong in "ONLY Chess" - the name gives it away why.

    And please get your facts straight. The mod in question, me, didn't suggest a panel to vet potential engine users, you did - he suggested reasons why he didn't think it'd work but suggesteed that if you had an idea it should be posted in site ideas

    Jon

  10. Standard memberTRACKHEAD21
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    29 Sep '04 18:50
    Originally posted by belgianfreak
    [b]This thread has been moved here because it didn't belong in "ONLY Chess" - the name gives it away why.

    And please get your facts straight. The mod in question, me, didn't suggest a panel to vet potential engine users, you did - he suggested reasons why he didn't think it'd work but suggesteed that if you had an idea it should be posted in site ideas

    Jon

    [/b]
    cool, thanks for the move.
  11. Subscriberno1marauder
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    29 Sep '04 18:52
    Originally posted by TRACKHEAD21
    yes true, it works with yahoo because the games are timed, if you leave you'll loss the game. Another thought I had though was pgn and fen. I know its nice to have to analyse your finished games but could these two things be gotten rid of? Without that a person would have to manually input a board position into an engine to cheat, throw about 100 games ...[text shortened]... put themselves through that kind of agony that could by itself possibly be a very good deterant.
    I vehemently oppose your solution of getting rid of PGN so that it makes it harder for a few cheaters. My purpose of being on this site is to improve my game and I download every completed game for later analysis. In my mind, it is the most useful thing on the site. I see no reason to make it harder for everybody to analyze their games for the actions of a few.

  12. Standard memberTRACKHEAD21
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    29 Sep '04 19:01
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    I vehemently oppose your solution of getting rid of PGN so that it makes it harder for a few cheaters. My purpose of being on this site is to improve my game and I download every completed game for later analysis. In my mind, it is the most useful thing on the site. I see no reason to make it harder for everybody to analyze their games for the actions of a few.

    You just solved the problem o that for yourself, goodjob, how about you can only get the pgn and fen of finished games, I'm guessing you wouldnt oppose of that? This way they cant be used during a game in process as there is no reason really for them to be used in a game in process anyway except for cheating.
  13. Subscriberno1marauder
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    29 Sep '04 19:161 edit
    Originally posted by TRACKHEAD21
    You just solved the problem o that for yourself, goodjob, how about you can only get the pgn and fen of finished games, I'm guessing you wouldnt oppose of that? This way they cant be used during a game in process as there is no reason ...[text shortened]... r them to be used in a game in process anyway except for cheating.
    If that can be done without a major headache for Russ, I would support it wholeheartedly.

    PS And if I was using an engine for my games, it would have been thrown out a window a long time ago for all the blunders I (it?) make!
  14. London
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    29 Sep '04 19:22
    A few problems with the "no FEN/PGN except finished games":
    1. Some people like to copy their current game to Winboard to try out lines of anaylsis without the pitfalls of the analysis board here. Others do so in order to print the game.
    2. If you use 'View source' on the analysis board, you will see FEN for every move of the game so far. The text of the move list is understadable to most PGN parsers. Getting rid of these features would mean geting rid of the analysis board.
    3. If someone is cheating, they don't need the FEN/PGN download. They just need to enter each move as it is made, using their engine to keep track of the separate games.
  15. Brooklyn, NY
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    29 Sep '04 19:34
    Originally posted by RolandYoung
    A few problems with the "no FEN/PGN except finished games":
    1. Some people like to copy their current game to Winboard to try out lines of anaylsis without the pitfalls of the analysis board here. Others do so in order to print the game.
    2. If you use 'View source' on the analysis board, you will see FEN for every move of the game so far. The text ...[text shortened]... need to enter each move as it is made, using their engine to keep track of the separate games.
    Yes, yes yes and YES.

    I frequently download PGN to import into scid while I'm playing a game. The shortcomings of the online "analyze game" are such that it's unsuitable for any seriously deep thinks. Does scid have a button to turn on a chess engine? Yes ... will I use it before the game is over? No.

    As for the "exe" idea .... that's just (and I'm trying to be polite) stupid. If you're playing Unreal Tournament online, perhaps an anti-bot executable works. If you're playing correspondence chess then ... hmm ... how many people have two computers? How easy is it to have an engine running before/after loading RHP in your browser. And, let's not even start discussions of having an unknown executable run on my desktop with enough permissions granted for it to watch what my browser windows are doing .... oh, and my desktop doesn't run "exe" anyway (I only visit the site from Mac or Linux).

    If someone wants to cheat against me in a game ... that's fine. I'll play, I'll lose and I'll move on. I may even learn something from the game by going back and seeing where I let it slip again ... and I'll surely have a more enjoyable game with someone else the next time I start one.


    In short - if someone wants to cheat they will cheat. You can't stop them - it really is that simple. Perhaps you can detect that fact after it's happened but you absolutely CANNOT prevent it. Every roadblock thrown in the way does little or nothing to deter diehard cheaters but does inconvenience those whose will power is still intact.



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