1. Joined
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    30 Mar '17 21:18
    Russ has recently put forth a proposal to replace the current default scoring method to determine a clan champion, the net points scoring, with a new metric, clan rating.

    Russ at the time strongly encouraged discussion on his proposal.
    This would lead the community to assume that this is not necessarily the final product.
    Accordingly, this has been discussed at length in several threads.
    There is support for the proposal along with some discomfort and skepticism.

    I had committed to submitting an alternate proposal, that being to improve the net score rather than replace it.

    This proposal should not be taken as my personal rejection of Russ's ideas.

    But I do feel an alternate solution is worth putting forward.

    So here is my offering, starting with a brief summary of the issues.
    Followed by some ideas.

    So I will say exactly what Russ said.
    Feel free to rip into it !! And have fun !!

    Primary issues:

    1 - problem with the scoring system. Meaning the way net points are awarded.

    2 - perceived problems with player rating manipulation commonly called sandbagging.

    3 - putting clan goals ahead of personal goals. In other words, players resigning clan games where the outcome has been decided.

    4 - collusion amongst amongst several clans to generate points towards one clan.

    Secondary issues:

    1 - inactive players in clan challenges

    2 - accusations of challenge dumping.

    3 - others. Feel free to add some.

    Proposed ideas:

    1 - implement a separate rating for clan games for each player. Best starting point for each player would be the site rating

    1A - further to (1) , use the same formula in the site FAQ but modify the K factor by lowering it to 8 from the 32 value in tournament play. This will reduce the rating variations from +/-32 to +/-8 per completed clan game. For 2 equally rated players, a win or a loss will result in a rating change of +/-4 rating points. This will greatly reduce the accusations of rating manipulation.
    This coupled with proposal 1 will solve the sandbagging issues.
    Once the player clan game rating is decoupled from the site rating, it will not be nearly as volitile as the tournament rating.

    2 - Implement a new net point scoring system with 2 components as follows:
    2.1 - use the net rating change as a score to contribute to a net score for the challenge. For example, if a player wins his game and his rating goes up 4 points, his clan will be awarded 4 points. His opponent losing the game will result in his clan getting -4 points. Rating changes from draws will factor in as well. They will likely be very small.
    Every game will count and the challenge score will be cumulative. So this will address resigning games in decided challenges.
    2.2 - the above comes with a flaw as it would discourage larger challenges. Clan leader may prefer 10 one player challenges over 1 ten player challenge. To address this create a bonus point system for challenge size. For example, 0 points for <5 games, x points for 5-10 games, y for > 10 games. Challenge draws award 0 bonus points. Final bonus point values can be worked out. And carefully so as to not just recreate the current scoring system.
    This would result in a hybrid scoring system.
    In this system, all clan scores are reset to 0 on Jan 1st of each year.
    Which is not the case with the clan rating proposal.

    3 - all clan games must go at least 5 moves to be set as rated games. This means any games not reaching 5 moves will not update the rating for each player. Additionally the games will not be assigned a W or L to the challenge game score. Abnormally and suspicious short games will not contribute to a challenge result. This will take care of inactive players. Additionally, any players tossing games would at least have to make some moves. Not a perfect solution but a deterrent.

    4 - consider a rethink on when the points are rewarded. Specifically 2 ideas:
    4.1 award the points on a game by game basis.
    4.2 award the clan bonus points once the challenge is clinched.
    The proposals above are a departure from the current protocol of awarding the points once the challenge is complete.
    Perhaps a radical departure that may be hard to digest. But this would end complaints of resigning games in decided challenges as well as the accusations of year end challenge dumping.

    5 - maintain a protocol of human intervention in the event of any improprieties by any clans. This is a requirement irregardless of whichever system this site moves forward with. Data correction may be easier in this system than with the clan rating system. Unless someone has figured out how to correct a clan rating.

    What I am proposing is what I believe moonbus (and giannotti) and I were circling in correspondence in the original site ideas thread.

    People were expecting individual player ratings for clan games.

    I believe that a clan rating can be a useful tool. As information only.

    I am acutely aware that the proposals 1-4 do not address collusion.
    Which is why proposal 5 has been put forth.
    Collusion is not a specific technique.
    It will occur in any new set up if certain individuals want to circumvent whatever is in place.

    This is my proposal.
    Like I said, have fun with it.
  2. Here
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    30 Mar '17 22:13
    Originally posted by mghrn55
    Russ has recently put forth a proposal to replace the current default scoring method to determine a clan champion, the net points scoring, with a new metric, clan rating.

    Russ at the time strongly encouraged discussion on his proposal.
    This would lead the community to assume that this is not necessarily the final product.
    Accordingly, this has been d ...[text shortened]... want to circumvent whatever is in place.

    This is my proposal.
    Like I said, have fun with it.
    My problem with 2.1 is the same as ELO for clans
    Challenges would be so close that there wouldn't be any change what ever the result ending once again with stagnation
  3. Joined
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    30 Mar '17 22:221 edit
    Originally posted by padger
    My problem with 2.1 is the same as ELO for clans
    Challenges would be so close that there wouldn't be any change what ever the result ending once again with stagnation
    Point taken.
    That's why I added point 2.2
    Also 2.1 will encourage clans to try to win 18-2 instead of 11-9.

    A lot of these 11-9 results are a result of clans reaching their challenge goals.

    This will be a hybrid system.
  4. Here
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    31 Mar '17 01:04
    I have thought about the problems that have caused some of us to come to the point of leaving the site or at least not paying to play
    The problems as I see it are Robbie Carrobie and a faulty points system
    Robbie who got green eyed over a couple of clans who where top or nearly always top of the clan list engineered a way of upsetting the system
    He wasn't prepared to go to all the hard work that these two clans did each year to maintain their advantage
    He along with a few others found ELO and decided that is what the clan system should be based on
    However there is a flaw in their thinking
    ELO is a system for ranking players and very good at it it is but it should not be used for anything else
    All the points system needed was sorting out
    It started when negative points were awarded ,these should be removed
    As I have stated over and over in no other game do you lose points that have already been won
    This would stop the dumping of games to " reduce the work load "
    So to get us back to where things were until last year
    All we need to do is sort out the points issue ,stop the collusions that went on last year and try and do something about sandbagging
  5. Subscriberroma45
    st johnstone
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    31 Mar '17 12:17
    i always find the easiest solution is the best

    COLLUSION
    when obvious, even Russ has said it took placem
    1] first offence remove all points with admin to sent pm to all players involved, some will not know what their idiotic leaders are doing
    2] second offence remove points and suspend clans
    3] boot players involved
  6. Joined
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    31 Mar '17 12:54
    Originally posted by roma45
    i always find the easiest solution is the best

    COLLUSION
    when obvious, even Russ has said it took placem
    1] first offence remove all points with admin to sent pm to all players involved, some will not know what their idiotic leaders are doing
    2] second offence remove points and suspend clans
    3] boot players involved
    That's covered in my proposal 5.

    That being said, people are clamoring for improvements to the clan feature.
  7. Account suspended
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    31 Mar '17 17:311 edit
    Well this certainly seems to have been an EPIC FAIL. Face the facts Mhbagger55
    ELO is here to stay. 😵
  8. Here
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    31 Mar '17 17:45
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Well this certainly seems to have been an EPIC FAIL. Face the facts Mhbagger55
    ELO is here to stay. 😵
    I thought you had said enough
    You can't even get that right
    The sooner you are gone the better
  9. Subscriberroma45
    st johnstone
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    31 Mar '17 19:27
    Originally posted by padger
    I thought you had said enough
    You can't even get that right
    The sooner you are gone the better
    no matter how many times you flush robbie never leaves

    hes getting worried, the ELO ripped apart, he cant continue his cheating ways.

    now we can finally move forward after the cheating collusion points have been removed.

    no amnesty
  10. Subscribershortcircuit
    The Energizer
    where you want to be
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    01 Apr '17 04:30
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Well this certainly seems to have been an EPIC FAIL. Face the facts Mhbagger55
    ELO is here to stay. 😵
    Who died and made you boss?? Loser!!!
  11. Subscribershortcircuit
    The Energizer
    where you want to be
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    01 Apr '17 12:12
    The post that was quoted here has been removed
    Nah, all you did was cheat with the help of your friends.

    You will NEVER be considered as a champion.

    Except in the abyss or your deluded mind.
  12. Joined
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    01 Apr '17 12:23
    The post that was quoted here has been removed
    2016 champions ??

    Did you try sorting the 2016 standings by your precious ELO clan rating ? 😀
  13. Account suspended
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    01 Apr '17 12:25
    Originally posted by mghrn55
    2016 champions ??

    Did you try sorting the 2016 standings by your precious ELO clan rating ? 😀
    It wasn't in place then so it does not matter, Its been fun watching your thread flop though. 😵
  14. Account suspended
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    01 Apr '17 12:311 edit
    Originally posted by shortcircuit
    Nah, all you did was cheat with the help of your friends.

    You will NEVER be considered as a champion.

    Except in the abyss or your deluded mind.
    wow it was a sunny day until you showed, now its like a monsoon of Metallica tears. Where Crybay Stover at?
  15. Joined
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    01 Apr '17 12:45
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    It wasn't in place then so it does not matter, Its been fun watching your thread flop though. 😵
    Russ updated the data in 2016.
    Like he said he would.

    It's in place !!
    Anyone can sort 2016 by clan rating.
    They can't do it for 2015.

    You clamored for it. You got it !!
    Read it and weep !! 😀😀
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