1. Joined
    28 Jan '04
    Moves
    3570
    08 Mar '08 03:37
    Just an attention-getter.

    I wonder if the subscribers who are starting clubs understand what they're in for. The prime -- and as near as I can tell, the only -- motive in adding these monstrosities to the site is to take part of the cheat-police load off the site admins. Aside from "devaluing the site rating system somehow" -- an odd ambition for a gamesite owner -- Russ has not made it clear how the "lead admins" are to perform their new duties. Are all the test engines used in the old game mod regime somehow to be made available to the lead admins? What about the poor unfortunate who has founded a club for sushi-lovers and now finds that he is expected to interpret statistical tests? Or are the lead admins going to be left to their own devices here? What if you're no good at this cheating detection business? Will your club fill up with cheaters? What happens when some wise guy (chess is the worst game for wiseguys, ever) elects to cheat only in club games -- big fish in small pond. What do you say to the clan leader who messages you: "How come xxxxxxx's club rating is 300 points higher than his site rating?" What happens when you notice that xxxxxxx belongs to eight other clubs and is rated lower in all of them?

    I notice that cmsMaster has said:

    I just got done telling a friend of mine how game moderation would be done if I were in charge, and now you've given me the chance.

    Maybe he could give y'all some tips.

    Or it may be that the clubs' lead admins will merely be expected to act as filters. No one can pester the site mods without their complaint being vetted by a club's lead admin. Or it may be that the lead admins will be expected to act as extra eyes, monitoring a large group of players and bringing their suspicions to the site's game mods, so that the anti-cheating struggle can be taken to a whole new level. Sound like fun?

    Whatever the reasoning behind this project, is the new deal really worth wrecking the clan system with what are -- except the cheating patrol aspect -- just big clans for free?
  2. Standard memberPhlabibit
    Mystic Meg
    tinyurl.com/3sbbwd4
    Joined
    27 Mar '03
    Moves
    17242
    08 Mar '08 04:24
    Originally posted by luctruc
    Just an attention-getter.

    I wonder if the subscribers who are starting clubs understand what they're in for. The prime -- and as near as I can tell, the only -- motive in adding these monstrosities to the site is to take part of the cheat-police load off the site admins. Aside from "devaluing the site rating system somehow" -- an odd ambition for a game ...[text shortened]... tem with what are -- except the cheating patrol aspect -- just big clans for free?
    Have you read "How to Serve Men"?

    It's a Cook BooK!

    If you run a club, you kick someone from it. You don't need to know if they're kicked from the site or care once they are gone from your club.

    If they are in a club you are in, just leave it.

    This is a crutch, but it gives individuals the chance to make the tough decisions the admins do. What are you going to do when Johnny Fritz is dominating a club you're in? What about a club you are running.

    Any nasty fighting about decisions will be removed from public forums I would hope, and clubs even out to the desires and expectations of the users. If not, the club will die or get changed.

    If you don't want to participate, the public grounds are still here.

    P-
  3. Joined
    28 Jan '04
    Moves
    3570
    08 Mar '08 04:32
    How are you, personally, going to decide when Johnny Fritz is sabotaging your club?

    Will you inform other clubs of the expulsion and your reasons for it?

    Will there be a blacklist of some kind for suspected cheaters, and who will be able to access the blacklist?
  4. Standard memberPhlabibit
    Mystic Meg
    tinyurl.com/3sbbwd4
    Joined
    27 Mar '03
    Moves
    17242
    08 Mar '08 04:42
    Originally posted by luctruc
    How are you, personally, going to decide when Johnny Fritz is sabotaging your club?

    Will you inform other clubs of the expulsion and your reasons for it?

    Will there be a blacklist of some kind for suspected cheaters, and who will be able to access the blacklist?
    I will contact them about it...

    No black list needed, if people start them... perhaps I'll kick them.

    Who can access the black list? No one can access the club unless I click yes. I can later click boot if I please.

    I can do what Russ has done, I will not talk about my decisions in public forums... I'm running my club the way I like.

    Others can do the same.

    Others don't need to join, or can come watch the buss crash if it does.

    We don't know what will happen, but Russ is giving us a chance to run a small portion of RHP the way we like.

    P-
  5. Joined
    28 Jan '04
    Moves
    3570
    08 Mar '08 04:49
    Haven't thought about a decision rule at all, or just keeping it a secret?

    Just out of curiosity (honest), what do you propose to do with your club

    Club 13

    that you can't do with your clan

    Clan 24350

    besides admit non-paying members, that is?
  6. Standard memberPhlabibit
    Mystic Meg
    tinyurl.com/3sbbwd4
    Joined
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    08 Mar '08 04:55
    Originally posted by luctruc
    Haven't thought about a decision rule at all, or just keeping it a secret?

    Just out of curiosity (honest), what do you propose to do with your club

    Club 13

    that you can't do with your clan

    Clan 24350

    besides admit non-paying members, that is?
    Why would you compare a club to a clan?

    Clan is a group of players who play strictly against clans they decide to play against other clans. The leader plays only clans they want, and only on terms they see fit.

    If one clan won't play the other, perhaps they don't like the pairings.

    It's a clan.

    Clubs are like the library, you go there to play social with those you want to.

    They are two totally different things.

    Also, you wonder why my clan doesn't play it is becuase we don't. We're there for the forum. You compare clubs to clans, but they are not the same thing. The clan system is dumb, I had clan 9 and wasn't pleased with the quantity over quality of clans.... I decided not to use the feature.

    Later, I found a new use for it.

    P-
  7. Joined
    28 Jan '04
    Moves
    3570
    08 Mar '08 05:03
    OK, so, at your clan, you socialize and play games among yourselves; whereas, at your club, you play games among yourselves and socialize.

    I get it.
  8. Joined
    28 Jan '04
    Moves
    3570
    08 Mar '08 05:14
    Btw, I think Phlabibit's case is the rule, not the exception. People thought "Hooray! Clubs!," started one up, and now wonder what's so special about clubs, except getting their buds in who won't shell out to join their clan.
  9. OC
    Joined
    10 Mar '05
    Moves
    15163
    10 Mar '08 16:25
    I don't know whether clubs will last or be scrapped (In my opinion, I don't think that Russ has decided either). I did form one that expresses my opinion towards them - Club 59.

    Anyway, it is clear that clubs are NOT clans and never will be. There is no competition between members - other than the statistics maintained which do not keep records of particular games. Rather, the statistics keep a general record of the results of games between club members as well as a club rating - for whatever that is worth.

    As for non-subs being permitted to join clubs, I don't see any advantage for the non-subs. They still can't play more than six games (the entire reason that I subscribed), join clans or play in tournaments. Even if they are permitted to play in club tournaments (that would have a limited number of players since they would have to draw from only the club itself), I doubt that Russ would permit them to play in more than six games.

    From a player's perspective, it appears that clubs will only add to the social element of this site if anything (even if their primary purpose by the administrators was to catch or discourage cheaters). If they last, they would permit subs and non-subs to have a group of people to potentially know and play against.

    Time will tell if clubs last.
  10. Joined
    28 Jan '04
    Moves
    3570
    11 Mar '08 05:45
    If the clubs had been conceived with the idea of adding to the "social element," I think the "rough code" that was introduced at the start would have included a forum function. In any case, with 300+ clans and the most raucous and entertaining public boards I've ever seen on a game site, I'd wonder about a plan to afford users even more opportunities for gathering.

    Btw, can anyone recall any demand at all for these things, publicly expressed? At all? Anyone saying: "You know, what we really need is giant clan-like deals that admit everyone and have their own ratings and ... and you could join for free and ... but they wouldn't play each other. No, they would just, like, be there."
  11. Subscriberhuckleberryhound
    Devout Agnostic.
    DZ-015
    Joined
    12 Oct '05
    Moves
    41992
    11 Mar '08 06:355 edits
    Originally posted by luctruc
    If the clubs had been conceived with the idea of adding to the "social element," I think the "rough code" that was introduced at the start would have included a forum function. In any case, with 300+ clans and the most raucous and entertaining public boards I've ever seen on a game site, I'd wonder about a plan to afford users even more opportunities for ga free and ... but they wouldn't play each other. No, they would just, like, be there."
    Dude. If you don't like them, you don't need to use them/join them/start one.

    I personally do not play in tournaments, unless they're banded duels, I also do not use the siege function. I do however play many games, and enjoy interacting with others. I enjoy playing people of higher rating, as it helps me learn, and i like beating them if i can because it makes me feel good.

    I am struggling to see what you have against clubs. There is a Games Moderation team currently being set up, and outside of the clubs, all will be as normal. There is no requirement for you to take part in the clubs, niether is there any need for them to encroach on your enjoyment of the site, they are just another way to enjoy playing chess. The end format for them is still unkown, and for those of us happy to embrace a new feature it is a welcome sideline in an already enjoyable passtime.

    I know you will probably discount my words, but your rampant, uneducated nay-saying is really baffling mate.

    I'll answer one question for you....I have no plans to become a Games moderator for my club.
    It stands to reason that club ratings will differ from normal ratings..eg. I have a 2100 player in my club. The chances of him playing against the others, outwith open tournaments, is actually quite slim. Am i to take it from that, that anyone with a higher rating than him is cheating.....God no, it's not my job to do games moderation. I have only played maybe one person who has been banned 3(b), why ? Because i am rated too low to meet him in an open challenge.

    Games mods will be doing the Games moderation, and i'll .....well, as of yet, i have no idea what i as club leader will do. For all i know, as soon as people have an option to leave a club, my club might disintigrate, as people choose the one or two that the feel comfortable asigning themselves to. For now, they are just skeleton lists of interest, which may or may not become an added feature to the site.

    Just my 2 cents worth, but i fail to see what you're so hyped up about.
  12. Joined
    28 Jan '04
    Moves
    3570
    11 Mar '08 06:55
    ... the end format for them is still unkown, and for those of us happy to embrace a new feature it is a welcome sideline in an already enjoyable passtime.

    You must have a guess as to the point of the exercise. Why do you think clubs were introduced? And, for extra credit, what is the virtue of your "own rating system running alongside the main site ratings"?
  13. Joined
    04 Jul '07
    Moves
    12208
    11 Mar '08 07:20
    huckleberryhound, I hate to say it, but it seems to me you're a bit biased. It's not surprising that you're in favor of a system that has afforded you a nice "prestigious" position as the leader of one of the larger clubs. I wonder if your excitement about your new role is hindering your ability to see both sides of the argument.

    You were asking luctruc and not me, but speaking for myself: yes, you are right, I don't need to participate in the club system. I can choose to entirely ignore it, and maybe I can minimize its impact on my experience of the site.

    But what I'm trying to do in this forum, which is what Russ asked everyone to do, is to consider whether this is going to be an overall positive or negative change to the site. I believe there could be some definite negative outcomes from this, and I think it's important they be discussed up front. Furthermore, I can't see that the positive aspects have been sufficiently demonstrated, other than the fact that this provides a temporarily amusing novelty to some people.
  14. Standard memberPhlabibit
    Mystic Meg
    tinyurl.com/3sbbwd4
    Joined
    27 Mar '03
    Moves
    17242
    11 Mar '08 13:24
    Originally posted by incandenza
    huckleberryhound, I hate to say it, but it seems to me you're a bit biased. It's not surprising that you're in favor of a system that has afforded you a nice "prestigious" position as the leader of one of the larger clubs. I wonder if your excitement about your new role is hindering your ability to see both sides of the argument.

    You were asking luct ...[text shortened]... d, other than the fact that this provides a temporarily amusing novelty to some people.
    Nothing has been proven yet because it's not really started yet. I don't have one of the larger clubs, I hope it does grow a bit more so I can get the 50 required for rated games. There is no problem with giving an idea a try, no problem with saying you are against it. Some of us want to give it a try, so we will always argue the other side.

    The only way clubs will take away from RHP is if they get very popular. At that point, you'll need to join one if you feel they are taking away from the the public aspect of RHP.

    If they fail, they will vanish. Either way, we at least need to wait for them to develop into what they are. If my club fails, but clubs prosper... I'll be in someone else's.

    I know many users who are not interested, I know I am and others are interested. I think a bit of time is needed, and nothing I've seen in 4 or so years has "ruined" RHP as much as I thought it might at the time.

    P-
  15. Joined
    04 Jul '07
    Moves
    12208
    11 Mar '08 15:34
    Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Phlabibit. I guess time will tell how it all plays out.
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