1. Standard memberArrakis
    D_U_N_E
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    08 Jan '05 00:12
    Eventually every system devised needs an upgrade or modification. RHP is no exception. I think it's a good idea to create a task force (call them what you want) to 'protect the average member'... Yes, that's the real purpose for such a group.

    People pay money to be able to log on this site and play chess against other players. *If* the site became overrun with members using their computers to play the games it wouldn't be much fun.

    Okay, so we at RHP realize that the time has come... that such a group is needed. I must make it very clear to the membership that the number 1 priority is NOT to catch cheaters! NO!!! The number 1 priority is TO PROTECT THE MEMBERS!

    I told Russ that I'd volunteer my knowledge and time to help such a group because, the time has come when such a group is now necessary. I think that Russ thought it would be a good idea to include the membership in the decision to form such a group. I advised against that, but as you can all see, we're in the middle of a voting campaign.

    Just as I suspected, the forums that were supposed to give members access to information have been dominated by very negative, abusive persons (and I don't need to mention their names).

    So where is all this taking us and why am I writing this post? Well, I made a commitment to help get a task force up and running for the purpose mentioned above. That's why I put my name on the list. HOWEVER, it is not and was not my intention to become a 'game moderator', 'cheat police' or whatever you want to call them. No, *my intention* was to help train the task force. Sure, I knew I'd be doing some busting too, but I only wanted to help RHP set up the group and TRAIN THEM!

    Imagine my surprize from all the people attacking my character over a person I didn't even know! I certainly don't owe anybody any more explainations as to what, how, when and where I did what I did, but I will say this: A person is considered innocent until PROOF shows he/she has cheated. It takes TIME to sort out the proper proof. Assumptions and posts don't carry any weight in court - and when I worked for ICC as a buster ALL my evidence would stand up in a court of law.

    Now then, I want to tell you all about a little story. I have a friend who met this girl... She had so many problems. She had so many excuses for the reason she was hooked on drugs.

    Well, my friend fell in love with her and wanted to 'save' her. I'm sure there are a few of you single guys out there who can understand this. Fr the rest of the more mature audience, please bear with me for a moment because what I am going to say this concerns you too.

    So 'Fred' kept putting up with all the bad things that druggies do... and after about 2 years, after she had taken everything he had to give, money, respect... everything. She is gone! But poor Fred is in hock up to his ears and seeing a psychiatrist. The theropist tells Fred, "you're right, there is a sick person in the relationship. But it's not your girlfriend. She's doing everything she wants to do!"

    So Fred was the sick person BECAUSE he tried to maintain a relationship which:

    1) gave him nothing in return
    2) was an unhealthy relationship
    3) took everything he had

    So, if you've stayed with me this long then you need to know:

    Why the heck would anyone who is of healthy mind stay in a sick, demeaning relationship!?

    That's what I'm thinking about with all the posts here against my character. Whether I decide to maintain this relationship or not decides on you - the members.

    arrakis
  2. An airport near you
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    08 Jan '05 00:24
    Your main problem here is that your posts haven't been consistent and you've been called on it.

    You've also been only too happy to attack players as being cheaters without the amount of proof you state you need, when they haven't been your clan members.
  3. Subscriberno1marauder
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    08 Jan '05 00:361 edit
    Originally posted by arrakis
    Eventually every system devised needs an upgrade or modification. RHP is no exception. I think it's a good idea to create a task force (call them what you want) to 'protect the average member'... Yes, that's the real purpose for such a ...[text shortened]... this relationship or not decides on you - the members.

    arrakis
    Well thank you for offerring to come down from your cross long enough to PROTECT MEMBERS; I'll mention that to Geoffkus next time I run into him. Nobody's attacked your "character"; we've questioned your judgment. YOU started calling people "liars" for telling it like it is so for you to act so wounded is juvenile. This post is yet another reason why you lack the qualifications necessary to be a Game Mod; you obviously are a wee bit too emotional to be dispassionate in assessing factual matters. So go have a good cry and then answer my question in the other thread. Oh, and you can finishing winning the clan challenge game against me; you know the one you didn't resign 'cuz I hurt your feelings (the 2 pawns down in the endgame I'm sure had nothing to do with it).
  4. Standard memberTRACKHEAD21
    Total Domination
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    08 Jan '05 07:16
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Well thank you for offerring to come down from your cross long enough to PROTECT MEMBERS; I'll mention that to Geoffkus next time I run into him. Nobody's attacked your "character"; we've questioned your judgment. YOU started calling people "liars" for telling it like it is so for you to act so wounded is juvenile. This post is yet another ...[text shortened]... cuz I hurt your feelings (the 2 pawns down in the endgame I'm sure had nothing to do with it).
    I just want to say how much I love how you speak your mind and tell it like it is. Kinda wish you were a choice as a cheat moderator, oops I mean Protection Moderators
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    08 Jan '05 10:14
    Well, it's an interesting way of putting it, but I suppose I do agree with the general sentiment. I do get the impression that the cheat police will end up simply proving guilt, without bothering about helping to establish innocence.

    You only have to look at some of the threads in here to see how easy it is for one person to shout that person x is a cheater and everyone else to come along and help prove it. There's a distinct lack of people giving any other possible reasons why they might not be a cheater.

    That's really why I put my name on the list, with the hope of acting as a bit of a voice of reason lest the police were simply a band of fanatics. The vote is mostly a popularity contest though, so I will simply hope that the eventual police do act with a modicum of reserve and that common sense prevails.
  6. Standard memberTRACKHEAD21
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    08 Jan '05 13:17
    Originally posted by mrmist
    Well, it's an interesting way of putting it, but I suppose I do agree with the general sentiment. I do get the impression that the cheat police will end up simply proving guilt, without bothering about helping to establish innocence.

    You only have to look at some of the threads in here to see how easy it is for one person to shout that person x is a che ...[text shortened]... y hope that the eventual police do act with a modicum of reserve and that common sense prevails.
    I totally disagree that the vote is a popularity contest, though when Russ first said he was going to let tehc ommunity vote I thought it could end up being that. From looking at the current results, the community is simply voting for those who they respect and think will do a good job as cheat moderators and they arent voting for those who thy think wont do a good job or just don't fit as cheat mods.
  7. Joined
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    08 Jan '05 13:361 edit
    Originally posted by mrmist
    Well, it's an interesting way of putting it, but I suppose I do agree with the general sentiment. I do get the impression that the cheat police will end up simply proving guilt, without bothering about helping to establish innocence.

    Y ...[text shortened]... e do act with a modicum of reserve and that common sense prevails.
    I would hope that the games moderators will try their very best to be fair and impartial, and will certainly not, in your words, "end up simply proving guilt, without bothering about helping to establish innocence."

    Cheating allegations are extremely serious, so it's essential that the people who investigate these allegations deal with them in the correct manner, which means that proper procedures need to be put in place and adhered to. In my opinion, establishing correct procedures should be the first task of the games moderators, before any individuals are investigated.

    When the games moderators do begin to investigate players, I believe their overwhelming priority is to establish the truth. Of course that's easier said than done, and there will always be an element of subjectivity involved in this. But the panel should be at least as eager to clear individuals wrongly accused, as to confirm other well-founded allegations. In situations in which the evidence is unclear or the panel is divided, I would hope that the panel would err on the side of caution and clear the individual.

    I put my name forward for similar reasons to mrmist, and I believe the vast majority of volunteers. I have no interest in being part of a witch-hunt or a "band of fanatics" Let's hope that all the people who are picked will act with reserve and common sense, and I will add, the utmost honesty and decency.

    Dave

  8. UK
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    08 Jan '05 13:40
    Originally posted by David Tebb
    I put my name forward for similar reasons to mrmist, and I believe the vast majority of volunteers. I have no interest in being part of a witch-hunt or a "band of fanatics" Let's hope that all the people who are picked will act with reserve and common sense, and I will add, the utmost honest and decency.

    Dave

    [/b]

    This is good, I hope that you get selected, and that anyone else selected shares similar views.
  9. Standard memberDeepfault
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    08 Jan '05 13:51
    There is no shortage of good intentions on this site.

    But there also appears to be a number of people who are inclined to hold very long or at least deep grudges and have their egos firmly behind the requirement to win totally.

    I would hope these personalities do not dominate either the Game MODs or whatevere the protection organisation arrakis is proposing.

    This sounds like some attempt to create some form of organisation or power base in the community a gang to oppose the other power base that is forming.

    Two or more Gangs that can oppose each others actions and predjudices is normally not a good idea.

    This seems to be a classic development in any community and unfortunately if you study these things the end result is usually blood on the carpet in one way or other.

    Either the two power bases fight continually in balance and the rules or protocol and decency erode as the stakes build. In this case accusations of cheating and corruption and slanders on peoples characters become mere tools in the war of egos.

    Or one wins out and then the other power base defects en mass.

    I believe now is the time to FORGIVE AND FORGET, thank god the earlier posts were erased so they can not be used in the battle of egos.

    Surely you must see that the only penalty you appear to want to accept for arrakis and whoever else, is total expulsion and yelling him down everytime will either cause him to leave or cause him to hit you with even worse counter attacks (Like this proposal for a new power base to protect the members, or pehaps a new organisation analysing YOUR games and being liberal with the interpretation of the results (dont reply to this is is just an example and not an accusation against anyone))

    If my old gran were alive she would look sadly down and say 'play nicely boys'

    The bigger people are the ones who can FORGIVE without apology and those who can acceot forgiveness even though they do not believe they have done anything that warrsnts it.

    Enough already let us play chess and not the game of one upmanship (at least outside of the debates forum).






    This is only my view and if I am overblowing this spat i apologise.










  10. London
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    08 Jan '05 16:30
    Originally posted by Deepfault
    There is no shortage of good intentions on this site.

    But there also appears to be a number of people who are inclined to hold very long or at least deep grudges and have their egos firmly behind the requirement to win totally.
    ...
    Like this proposal for a new power base to protect the members, or pehaps a new organisation analysing YOUR games and bei ...[text shortened]... y let us play chess and not the game of one upmanship (at least outside of the debates forum).
    I am entirely in agreement with the spirit of this post. However, either you or I have seriously misinterpreted Arrakis's original post.

    As I understand him, he is not proposing "a new power base to protect the members". He is saying that the game mods are supposed to perform exactly this role. That is, the primary objective of the game mods is not "catch the cheats and string them up" but "protect the members from having the enjoyment of the site, to which they have paid subscriptions, ruined by rampant cheating".

    I sincerely hope that Arrakis does not feel driven from the site and that, whether or not he is picked as a game mod, his experience of computer-busting will be drawn on. I think it might indeed be very helpful if he was able to say that he regrets any impression of favouritism that may have arisen from his initial response to allegations against various players; nonetheless, entertaining as it may be to indulge in high-speed low-level flights of rhetoric, I also wish some of his detractors would give a bit of thought to the harm they may be doing to the environment at large.
  11. Subscriberno1marauder
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    08 Jan '05 17:09
    Originally posted by RolandYoung
    I am entirely in agreement with the spirit of this post. However, either you or I have seriously misinterpreted Arrakis's original post.

    As I understand him, he is not proposing "a new power base to protect the members". He is saying that the game mods are supposed to perform exactly this role. That is, the primary objective of the game mods is not ...[text shortened]... etractors would give a bit of thought to the harm they may be doing to the environment at large.
    As one of Arrakis' detractors, I wish others would give a little thought to the harm he did to the environment of the site by allowing a blatant and obvious cheater to play on his team in the clan leagues. And as one of a relatively small group of people who's constant complaining and production of evidence concerning the "rampant cheating" going on at RHP in the last few months has led in no small part to the Game Mod concept being put into place, I will accept Arrakis' tardy endorsement of plan to "protect members from cheating" but not his inclusion on the Game Mods as his recent actions show he is unqualified. If he feels people correcting his misstatements and distortions are such an "attack on his character" that it warrants him leaving the site in a childish huff, so be it: I'm a 2BitLawyer not a Kindergarten Monitor.
  12. Standard memberDeepfault
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    08 Jan '05 17:28
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    As one of Arrakis' detractors, I wish others would give a little thought to the harm he did to the environment of the site by allowing a blatant and obvious cheater to play on his team in the clan leagues. And as one of a relatively small group of people who's constant complaining and production of evidence concerning the "rampant cheating" going ...[text shortened]... im leaving the site in a childish huff, so be it: I'm a 2BitLawyer not a Kindergarten Monitor.
    He REALLY did upset you didn't he?

    I know nothing about what he did (and I dont want to know).

    Is there ANY way he can redeem himself in your eyes or is he condemmed to the back benches of ignomy for the rest of his time on the site?

    If he is going to be harrased everytime he makes a statement on anything then he may as well leave the site. Poor bloke

    Is your only solution the permenant social death penalty or can you ever give him the benefit of the doubt and entertain the idea that he actually might be an ok bloke and do his best in the future to prove he is neither corrupt nor incompetent.

    It is not as if he is a nobody like me, he has been involved with online chess for ages, he writes for a chess magazine he has even BEEN a game mod on another site. This guy is like seriously into chess.

    His presence can only enrich the community and yet according to you he has commited a crime so hienous that he should never again be allowed to contibute on any other level apart from a player.

    If you step back a bit and look at things again do you really really believe his character is so tarnished that he must be persecuted or is there a little tiny bit of payback here that should now be forgotten.

    Please note I do not want to end up in the firing line by defending him and I am simply trying to smooth the waters that are troubled.

    I will butt out entirely if you give me enough abuse and tell me to mind my own business.






  13. Subscriberno1marauder
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    08 Jan '05 17:53
    Originally posted by Deepfault
    He REALLY did upset you didn't he?

    I know nothing about what he did (and I dont want to know).

    Is there ANY way he can redeem himself in your eyes or is he condemmed to the back benches of ignomy for the rest of his time on the site?

    If he is going to be harrased everytime he makes a statement on anything then he may as well leave the site. Poor ...[text shortened]... butt out entirely if you give me enough abuse and tell me to mind my own business.






    Why do some people have to read some ridiculous personal vendetta into every disagreement on substantive matters? I haven't written a single post having ANYTHING to do with Arrakis other than the JW affair and in response to his post regarding his qualifications to be a Game Mod. I don't think he's qualified to be a Game Mod for the reasons I've given; you can agree or disagree but please stop assuming there's some PERSONAL issue involved as there is not. And if you know nothing about his part in the JW fiasco, simply reread the posts in the other thread where it's summarized - unfortunately, you won't be able to read the original posts in the James Woodley thread in late November as that thread has been deleted. So make an informed decision, make a misinformed decision, make a noninformed decision or make no decision at all about Arrakis' inclusion on the Game Mods, PERSONALLY I don't care but as a matter of the Game Mods doing an effective job, I think he's a bad choice. Up to you (well, Russ really).
  14. Standard memberNemesio
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    09 Jan '05 02:38
    Originally posted by arrakis
    Imagine my surprize from all the people attacking my character over a person I didn't even know! I certainly don't owe anybody any more explainations as to what, how, when and where I did what I did, but I will say this: A person is considered innocent until PROOF shows he/she has cheated. It takes TIME to sort out the proper proof. Assumptions and posts don't carry any weight in court - and when I worked for ICC as a buster ALL my evidence would stand up in a court of law.

    For the record, I haven't made an attack on your character. I've questioned
    the judgment you exercised when dealing with an issue which has been the
    literal source of this community's discontent. You claimed you didn't know
    anything about JW, yet you had a post in September about his cheating
    status. Certainly, as an experienced cheat-catcher, you know that people
    tend not to renounce cheating; why should JW have been any different?

    I believe having him in your clan clouded your judgment. I think had
    JW not been in your clan, you would have been much quicker to react. I am
    not inclined to think it a malicious act on your part, but a severe lapse in
    judgment.

    Why severe? Because it was well established before you even entered
    the picture. Even I, who know very little about engines and analysis,
    could see the patent abuses that JW did. The fact that you, an experienced
    engine analyzer (or whatever you are called at ICC), did not see this
    leads me to question your ability to judge these events.

    The fact that you haven't not acknowledged your error in judgment, but
    instead gave a matter-of-fact dismissal to JW from your clan, and that
    you have defended your actions is reprehensible.

    If there had been one claim, I could have understood your reticence. Two,
    three, four...I can see your thinking that people have a grudge against JW.
    But there were literally dozens of complaints about him: so severe that Russ
    has had to act by forming this police force.

    As a leader, you ought to know that, while one or two or a few people might
    have a grudge, when that many members of a community are hollering,
    something is amiss.

    You ignored these signs when they were obvious to you in September. You
    ignored them in November and into December. You let him continue in your
    clan on the assumption that everyone else was wrong, and that JW was telling
    the truth about his 'reformed life.'

    It is for this reason, I believe, that you ought not be a 'Game Moderator.'

    That's what I'm thinking about with all the posts here against my character. Whether I decide to maintain this relationship or not decides on you - the members.

    First of all, you have totally misread your own story. It wasn't
    Fred's girlfriend's fault that he stayed in the relationship, it was Fred's
    fault. Whether or not you decide to maintain this relationship is
    YOUR decision. If you feel this place is a bad place, then, yes, you
    should leave. But it the responsibility rests entirely on you.

    You should know that being a 'Game Moderator' means that you will
    incur all manner of scrutiny because you will be wielding a great deal
    of power. If you are so thin-skinned that you are implying that you
    might leave if supposed 'attacks on your character' continue, then you
    are not well-suited for being a moderator.

    Moderators need to have a level head and fair judgment under all sorts
    of uncomfortable conditions (e.g., your own clan member is accused and
    found to be cheating).

    You might want to rethink things at this point.

    Nemesio
  15. Standard memberArrakis
    D_U_N_E
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    09 Jan '05 16:35
    Originally posted by RolandYoung
    I am entirely in agreement with the spirit of this post. However, either you or I have seriously misinterpreted Arrakis's original post.

    As I understand him, he is not proposing "a new power base to protect the members". He is saying that the game mods are supposed to perform exactly this role. That is, the primary objective of the game mods is not ...[text shortened]... etractors would give a bit of thought to the harm they may be doing to the environment at large.
    YES! The game mods are supposed to protect members by limiting the amount of cheating.

    While I'm here I'd like to mention that I accept all responsibility for the lag of time it took to lick JW off the team. Latex Bishop had suggested to me that we should kick him because of the messages posted that he was cheating, but he left it as my decision cause I was the team captain. So I went in and looked at the games posted and analyzed them. Unfortunately, the games posted gave evidence that a computer program was NOT used. For example, in one of the games was where White could've won Black's queen in 2 moves. JW missed that but no computer program would have.

    I deeply regret the fact that my investigation ended up giving The Fun Clan some bad publicy in the forums. However, I must tell everyone that I will never agree to label a person a cheater if the evidence proves otherwise. Once I found evidence to the contrary I told our clan leader and we agreed to kick JW.

    One last point. It's pretty obvious that no matter what I say in the forums there are a few people at RHP who want to criticize it. So I appeal not to those people who, for whatever reason keep posting hate mail towards myself, but to those who can think for themselves and make their own decisions.
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