The Creation of a Task Force to Protect Players

It seems, on the basis of the recent posts in the site forum that arrakis may have missed some pointers in the JW affair, but generally his treatment does himself credit not harm.

Why? He has ignored the circumstantial evidence of rating graphs (wouldn't someone playing ability change dramatically if they just started using openings databases?) and just looked at the concrete evidence of particular games and found no cheating evidence to present.

Though I can't see that #1 has done any harm to RHP other than slag off one of the best candidates somewhat unfairly.

I think what most of us can see when reading these exchanges is that #1 and Arrakis should be on the same side. I quote from a earlier post of #1's

'3. The cheat police would make a finding in the case as to whether the player had cheated. Such a finding would be based on a "clear and convincing" evidence standard and would require the positive vote of a large majority of the cheat police, perhaps 3/4 agreeing that the person had cheated. The player would be informed of this finding and of the results of the vote (a number not how individuals voted)'

Furthermore I'd suggest that Arrakis has a better understanding of 'clear and convincing' evidence than most.

Originally posted by The Swine Down Hope
It seems, on the basis of the recent posts in the site forum that arrakis may have missed some pointers in the JW affair, but generally his treatment does himself credit not harm.

Why? He has ignored the circumstantial evidence of rating graphs (wouldn't someone playing ability change dramatically if they just started using openings databases ...[text shortened]... uggest that Arrakis has a better understanding of 'clear and convincing' evidence than most.

I've addressed this in other threads, but the use of opening databases WILL NOT dramatically increase your playing ability as most games ARE NOT decided in the opening. I have previously estimated that even intelligent use of a database (which requires some sophisticated chess knowledge in itself which JW clearly did not possess) would raise a player's rating at most a 100 points; sorry folks, you can't just turn to a database and start winning EVERY GAME like Woodley all of a sudden did. Give me any single 1200 rated player, I'll give them the databases I use, even explain how to use them most efficiently and we'll see if they win EVERY GAME and go up to 1700 in a month.

The rest of your post shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the concepts of "clear and convincing" and "circumstantial" evidence. As to the latter, any evidence the Game Mods will have will be "circumstantial" unless someone confesses or is actually seen using an engine - those are "direct" evidence (as is physical and other types of evidence). And, FINALLY, FINALLY, FINALLY, the evidence that JamesWoodley was cheating in late November BEFORE the start of the clan leagues was absolutely overwhelming, far beyond "clear and convincing" probably "beyond a reasonable doubt" and possibly "a moral certainty". Those who say otherwise either did not follow the evidence presented in THESE FORUMS at the time or are being disingenous.

And Gatecrasher: Don't read threads if you find them so boring and uninteresting.

Originally posted by The Swine Down Hope
It seems, on the basis of the recent posts in the site forum that arrakis may have missed some pointers in the JW affair, but generally his treatment does himself credit not harm.

Why? He has ignored the circumstantial eviden ...[text shortened]... er understanding of 'clear and convincing' evidence than most.

Unfortunately you are incorrect. Not sure where you have come from jumping in on these threads which you have no clue about but maybe you should stop. JW's case was so "circumstancial" and his games had so much lack of evidence of cheating that he got booted off the site for it, lol. I know you want to sound like you know what you are talking about but sadly JW's rating graph has nothing to do with anything. His incredible engine match % which was pretty darn high along with going from the strength of an 1100 player to that of a 2000 player may have had just a little bit to do with why he was kicked and why everyone said how obvious a case of cheating it was. The fact the guy got kicked off the site by itself pretty much shows arrakis' understanding of "clear and convincing" evidence or more possibly the lack there of. The cheat police will help protect people from playing engines and help clear people who are accussed but innocent. They arent here to protect engine users because the user is on their league team. Still not sure how many mods there will be but if there is maybe 5, luckily he is 6th in voting and with little more amounts of votes to come in, with those who are gonna vote pretty much having already voted, it seems we won't have to worry about having the mod who does what I just stated they arent here to do.

I thought the point of the Game Moderators was that they should be experienced computer busters based on a combination of chess playing experience and by using their own chess engine software to compare suspected players. Any half decent player can look at someone's rating, win/lose ratio and steep rising graph (let's say TRACKHEAD21s for example) and say 'Hang on, this looks a bit fishy'.

However, what we need is someone who is willing and able to put in the time to look at the actual games. Arrakis can do that and clearly wants to, to judge him on this one stupid example of JW, which is largely due to the fact that Arrakis never used to read the forums, is nonsense. The bottom line is that Arrakis looked at JW's games and didn't pass judgement until he found the evidence.

Originally posted by TRACKHEAD21
Unfortunately you are incorrect. Not sure where you have come from jumping in on these threads which you have no clue about but maybe you should stop.

That's out of order TH21. Just because people don't post in the threads doesn't mean that they don't know anything about what's going on. As has been said numerous times lately (by you?), a large number of people read the forums without posting.

D

Originally posted by Ragnorak
That's out of order TH21. Just because people don't post in the threads doesn't mean that they don't know anything about what's going on. As has been said numerous times lately (by you?), a large number of people read the forums without posting.

D

No no, nothing wrong with posting at all. He's just been posting about stuff that he doesn't know about which is onl apparent from what he says. If it had been someone who had been paying attention to whats going on and then posted accordingly nothing would be wrong with it. What he said shows he clearly has no idea about what happened with JW. And hae seen another post on a topic which he clearly didnt know what he was talking about but that is another matter. It's like somone coming into the forums and, stealing from exy's post, said my graph was fishy, not being a member long enough to know that you cant see my full graph which shows that I was rated around where I am now and simply dropped while gone and have gone straight back up after coming back. If someeone said something like that I would say the same thing, that they came posting thinking or pretending like they know something when they simply havent been paying attention or havent been here long enough to know everything about what they post about.

Originally posted by TRACKHEAD21
Not sure where you have come from jumping in on these threads which you have no clue about but maybe you should stop.

Where I come from is appreciating that Arrakis didn't just accept the information in the threads but instead did some first hand research (however limited that may be) which turned out to be negative.

So he didn't look at all the evidence available and wasn't perfect (probably was busy actually playing games!), but seems a little silly to ignore the offer of help from the only player with previous experience (I assume).

Originally posted by TRACKHEAD21
And hae seen another post on a topic which he clearly didnt know what he was talking about but that is another matter.

I suggest if you have criticism of any of my other posts you either post a link to them, or comment on in the appropriate place - this way others reading have the chance to evaluate your comments.

To try and twist Arrakis' allowing a blatant and obvious cheat onto his clan league team when there was already a mountain of evidence against that player, into a positive qualification to be a Game Mod, is absolutely mind boggling. At least have the decency to say Arrakis screwed up; instead you're saying BECAUSE he allowed Woodley on his clan team that PROVES he should be a Game Mod!!! I need to retire for a while before my head explodes!

Originally posted by arrakis
While I'm here I'd like to mention that I accept all responsibility for the lag of time it took to lick JW off the team. ... I deeply regret the fact that my investigation ended up giving The Fun Clan some bad publicy in the forums.

This is all I needed to hear. Thank you, Arrakis.

Nemesio

Originally posted by no1marauder
To try and twist Arrakis' allowing a blatant and obvious cheat onto his clan league team when there was already a mountain of evidence against that player, into a positive qualification to be a Game Mod, is absolutely mind boggling. At least have the decency to say Arrakis screwed up; instead you're saying BECAUSE he allowed Woodley on his clan team that PROVES he should be a Game Mod!!! I need to retire for a while before my head explodes!

Hey! You said many days ago that if I gave you an answer to your question you would drop the JW thing! Well, you are a blatant LIAR!
You won't only not drop the incident you deliberately asked me to post so that you could continue!

So I'll throw another angle at you... Everyone, you, me, even the top player started out with a 1200 rating! That DOES NOT make the person a 1200 player now does it!? NO! In order to be "a 1200 player" one has to STAY a 1200 player for quite a length of time!
But you don't care what the facts are. Your mind is like a steel trap...
Everything that goes in gets mangled!!!!

I'm not even going to read any more posts by this guy. He has no integrity, is a proven LIAR, and can't put 2+2 together to make 4.

Originally posted by arrakis
Hey! You said many days ago that if I gave you an answer to your question you would drop the JW thing! Well, you are a blatant LIAR!
You won't only not drop the incident you deliberately asked me to post so that you could continue!

So ...[text shortened]... ntegrity, is a proven LIAR, and can't put 2+2 together to make 4.

A) You've never answered the question of how a player of Woodley's limited skills could suddenly start winning every game without cheating;

B) If you're answer is you can't read a ratings graph and thought JW was ALWAYS above 1500 then you're incompetent:

C) YOU asked me to post concerning the Game Mod vote regarding your candidacy in an in-game message - if you dispute this I'll post it verbatim;

D) Woodley had played about 300 games when he had a 1200 rating, he was not a provisional. About 50 of those games he cheated in by winning short mates against ian93 who was either a second account or a friend of JW's throwing games. These facts concerning JW were public knowledge in late November but you ignored them. Therefore, you are either incompetent or unethical (pick one).

I'm not terribly interested in your name calling, hissy fits but I am interested in getting an efficient, competent group of Game Mods together to attempt to stop, as much as humanly possible, engine use at RHP. Your posts as of late show you are irrational, stubborn and cannot take criticism; all traits which would make you a poor choice. I fervently hope you are not selected.

EDIT: Regarding C: the request for a "vote of confidence" was in a PM, not an in-game message. Not a big difference, but unlike you, I prefer to keep the record accurate.

Originally posted by arrakis
Everyone, you, me, even the top player started out with a 1200 rating! That DOES NOT make the person a 1200 player now does it!? NO! In order to be "a 1200 player" one has to STAY a 1200 player for quite a length of time!

I will have to confess that it is patently clear that JW was a 1200
player for a very long time; the graph is skewed right now, but it
wasn't in September where JW first came to your attention.

And you most certainly knew about the cheating where a third-move
resignation took place; your post on 26 September testifies to your
inclination to do research. So either you didn't remember that JW
was a cheater from your post on 26 September, or you didn't think
that he was inclined to cheat again. For the former, the nearly
constant complaining about JW in the forums should have jogged
your memory, for the latter, your trust in cheaters is utterly misplaced.

I think your constant defense of your indefensible actions belies any
implicit apology you tried to give earlier.

Nemesio

arrakis does not need to be all-seeing and all-knowing.
no game mod does.
each game mod just needs to be a cog in the process.

we need:
1/ enthusiastic members keen to be a part of the process.
who can be EITHER:
2/ aggressive accusers tending to prosecute and burn with only flimsy evidence, and take that risk.
or
3/ active defenders tending to support and feel for the indefencible victim ... and never give up til checkmate.
or
4/ judges tending to sit back and genuinely listen to both sides make their cases ... doing a little research of their own when necessary ... wait a while ... and only then join in the case for or against.


they all need to be enthusiastic (1).
noone can ever be all 2,3 and 4.
noone needs to even be classified as 2,3, or 4.
it is probably best to have some natural 2 mods, and natural 3 mods.
the mods must have at least a few number 4's (detached judges)

it seems to me that arrakis has not demonstrated to be accuser or active defender.
arrakis claims to be a judge but i see no evidence of this yet - that is characteristic of these people ... you do not see them until they choose a side ... but he sure took a hell of a long time with JW.
arrakis also claims to be enthusiastic(1), this is a very good thing, number 1 is probably the most difficult to instill ... arrakis is either a judge, or can learn one of the other arts ...(or get the hell out).

thankfully russ has shown himself to be a natural number 4 🙂