1. Subscribervenda
    Dave
    S.Yorks.England
    Joined
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    58847
    28 Jul '11 11:25
    Apart from the so called "sandbaggers", I woundn't have thought anyone deliberately loses games by being timed out.
    When a player loses lots of games thro' timeout ,possibly due to "circumstances beyond his control" his rating plummets.
    This false current rating makes it difficult for clan leaders to find fair challenges.
    One example:-
    I am playing a guy whose current rating is 1086.If I were searching for a clan match for one of my 1800 players I wouldn't even consider this chap - but his T.E.R. is 1789!!.
    The Idea(eventually):-
    If you win or lose a game by timeout your rating is unaffected.
    This might also encourage the skull hawks to be a little less enthusiastic.
  2. SubscriberPonderable
    chemist
    Linkenheim
    Joined
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    515927
    28 Jul '11 11:29
    And it will lead to people forfeiting their losing games by timeout to escape rating loss.
  3. Subscribervenda
    Dave
    S.Yorks.England
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    28 Jul '11 11:50
    Ah,.Good point. Thought it sounded a bit too simple!!
    I'm really just looking for a way to make my clan leaders life a bit easier!!
    However, it does seem unfair that if this player who is historically a better player than me wins ours games, MY rating will suffer more than it should just because he's lost about 2 million games by timeout!!.
  4. THORNINYOURSIDE
    Joined
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    245624
    28 Jul '11 12:26
    Originally posted by venda
    Ah,.Good point. Thought it sounded a bit too simple!!
    I'm really just looking for a way to make my clan leaders life a bit easier!!
    However, it does seem unfair that if this player who is historically a better player than me wins ours games, MY rating will suffer more than it should just because he's lost about 2 million games by timeout!!.
    A reason why their should be a CCR (Clan Challenge Rating) which should show your highest ever rating minus 100/150 points (this would be closer to your true playing ability as many players experience spikes).

    That way an 1800 rated player with a current rating of 1300 who is included in a Clan challenge against a genuine 1300 rated player will stand out when the Clan Leader decides whether to accept/decline the challenge.

    Player A CCR 1800 current 1300 Player B CCR 1345 current 1300
    Player C CCR 1650 current 1420 Player D CCR 1710 current 1570
    Player E CCR 1420 current 1420 Player F CCR 1690 current 1260

    You can then compare both the CCR and their current rating to see those who are playing well below their true ability.

    It will also make it more obvious to Clan Leaders who is issuing dodgy challenges with players well below their rating.
  5. Subscribervenda
    Dave
    S.Yorks.England
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    28 Jul '11 12:46
    Absolutlely!
    Or even showing the tournament entry rating would at least give some sort of guide.
    Incorporate this with my suggestion of a facility to search for clan players available for challenges by rating (CCR or TER) by entering a range, and matching players would be a lot simpler.
    E.g If I want to find a challenge for one of my players rated 1800 , I type in 1790 - 1910 and I get a list of available clan players within that range.
  6. SubscriberPonderable
    chemist
    Linkenheim
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    515927
    28 Jul '11 12:56
    Problem: If a player went down several hundred opoints and wins against one with equal ability the loser will sufffer much more damage to their rating points...people won't like to be paired to such players. Just top think about that.
  7. Subscribervenda
    Dave
    S.Yorks.England
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    28 Jul '11 13:20
    Don't fully undestand your point.
    My 1800 player plays a clan game against a player with a current rating of 1400 but with a "realistic" rating of 1800 reflected by Adrams suggestion of a clan challenge rating and my player loses so his rating suffers?
    Is that what you mean?.
    This goes back to the original point that ratings are not a true reflection because of timeouts.
    As no "genuine" clan player would deliberately lose a clan game by timeout, perhaps a dual rating system similar to the club rating and site rating set up would be an idea.
    This would also stop the "sandbaggers" dumping non clan games to lower their ratings as their clan rating would be unaffected.
  8. Subscribercoquette
    Already mated
    Omaha, Nebraska, USA
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    30 Jul '11 16:47
    as a clan leader, i find the information we now have to make the ratings is more than sufficient. i'm not arguing against any potential improvements. i just want to point out that with just a click we have a pretty good performance profile in front of us. any sandbaggers, or just plain underrated players for whatever reasons, i think are pretty apparent at a glance.
  9. Subscribervenda
    Dave
    S.Yorks.England
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    31 Jul '11 18:09
    Originally posted by coquette
    as a clan leader, i find the information we now have to make the ratings is more than sufficient. i'm not arguing against any potential improvements. i just want to point out that with just a click we have a pretty good performance profile in front of us. any sandbaggers, or just plain underrated players for whatever reasons, i think are pretty apparent at a glance.
    I agree there's a lot of information there, but going back to my original example,if I want to find a challenge for my 1800 player, I look for players with similar ratings so the 1086 rated player would not even be considered.The "one click" would never happen.
    But 1086 is a false rating because of his lost games by timeout and in effect a challenge wouldn't be unfair.
    As a leader don't you find you spend a lot of time looking for opponents for your team?
    How many examples like the one above do you think we as leaders miss?.
    If a players tournament entry rating were displayed without having to look at his full profile opprtunities wouldn't be missed.
  10. Standard memberRevRSleeker
    CerebrallyChallenged
    Lyme BayChesil Beach
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    17848
    31 Jul '11 20:331 edit
    Originally posted by venda
    I agree there's a lot of information there, but going back to my original example,if I want to find a challenge for my 1800 player, I look for players with similar ratings so the 1086 rated player would not even be considered.The "one click" would never happen.
    But 1086 is a false rating because of his lost games by timeout and in effect a challenge wouldn't were displayed without having to look at his full profile opprtunities wouldn't be missed.
    my own simple answer Dave, is ask the intended opponent if they feel it fair..I always do, send a message saying 'this 'playerx' wants to challenge you, have a look and let me know if you're happy'..you can always throw in your own observations also.
    EDIT: display the proposed challenge to the forum and send a multi message to those concerned asking them have a look IF time is short and you can't make observations for each. Members are much happier than waking up finding this or that challenge has hit their inbox...clans that literally load their members with myriad challenges wouldn't be at all interested in this approach mind you. They have high turnover of player also..which suggests what exactly !??
  11. Subscribervenda
    Dave
    S.Yorks.England
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    31 Jul '11 22:59
    Originally posted by RevRSleeker
    my own simple answer Dave, is ask the intended opponent if they feel it fair..I always do, send a message saying 'this 'playerx' wants to challenge you, have a look and let me know if you're happy'..you can always throw in your own observations also.
    EDIT: display the proposed challenge to the forum and send a multi message to those concerned asking the ...[text shortened]... pproach mind you. They have high turnover of player also..which suggests what exactly !??
    Think you're missing my point here Dean.
    There is a formula for calculating TER and the most important part of it is the bit which says:-
    "Your TER will never be less than 100 points below your highest rating".
    This is a more realistic guide to a players actual ability and if it were displayed on the clan home page it would be a lot easier to find fair challenges because players who would apper to be low rated would have their more realistic rating displayed.
    Don't know what "EDIT" means in your post -but it wasn't me.
  12. Standard memberRevRSleeker
    CerebrallyChallenged
    Lyme BayChesil Beach
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    01 Aug '11 01:18
    Originally posted by venda
    Think you're missing my point here Dean.
    There is a formula for calculating TER and the most important part of it is the bit which says:-
    "Your TER will never be less than 100 points below your highest rating".
    This is a more realistic guide to a players actual ability and if it were displayed on the clan home page it would be a lot easier to find fair chal ...[text shortened]... alistic rating displayed.
    Don't know what "EDIT" means in your post -but it wasn't me.
    okey cokey 🙂
  13. SubscriberPonderable
    chemist
    Linkenheim
    Joined
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    515927
    01 Aug '11 12:51
    Originally posted by venda
    Don't fully undestand your point.
    My 1800 player plays a clan game against a player with a current rating of 1400 but with a "realistic" rating of 1800 reflected by Adrams suggestion of a clan challenge rating and my player loses so his rating suffers?
    Is that what you mean?.
    This goes back to the original point that ratings are not a true reflection becau ...[text shortened]... " dumping non clan games to lower their ratings as their clan rating would be unaffected.
    If a player having a rating of 1800 loses against a player rated 1800 he loses about 16 rating points. If he loses against a plaer rated 1100 "at the moment" he will lose 32.

    A lot of players are stingy with their rating points, so some may complain if you pair them with equal strength players whose rating suffered very much.
  14. Subscribervenda
    Dave
    S.Yorks.England
    Joined
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    01 Aug '11 21:07
    Originally posted by Ponderable
    If a player having a rating of 1800 loses against a player rated 1800 he loses about 16 rating points. If he loses against a plaer rated 1100 "at the moment" he will lose 32.

    A lot of players are stingy with their rating points, so some may complain if you pair them with equal strength players whose rating suffered very much.
    Ok.I see your point.
    A clan challenge rating as suggested by Adram separate from the overall site rating would probably be the answer.
    Your starting clan challenge rating would have to be based on your tournament entry rating, although this number is a bit lopsided because it is based on overall rating.
    I would suggest a starting rating using the formula (Highest rating + current rating) /2 but based on the last 90 days performance -not 5 years.
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