Originally posted by Virtue76Now we're getting someplace. RHP should not have introduced the new vacation system. First time around we were asked if we wanted timebank or vacation. I wanted vacation time, not timebank.
Why introduce a vacation flag for immunity from timeouts?
There already was a vacation flag.
Timebank was decided on, rather than a vacation system.
Fine.
Months later, RHP starts a vote about having a vacation system. Why do we need vacation when we have timebank? The reason is that most players don't set games to a proper time limit, and if something comes up they get timed out.
The time bank should keep running, and not stop. Vacation is 36 days, no need slow games more, or we may as well make it 120 days of vacation.
P-
I'll second Virtue's recommendation.
While it may be true that the timebank was once an alternative to vacation, I think people have adjusted their game loads to account for the extra room time-bank gives. And when I say people, I mean clan leaders as well as individuals. That's not knocking clan leaders. If a few clans start to take on more game load due to time-banks, then it's either increase as well or cede the race. So there's a natural pressure in the RHP clan system to push people to play as many games as the system will feasibly allow. Vacations then throw a monkey wrench into things.
A frozen-clock vacation system makes sense for people who are really going on vacation. The current system just uses up your timebank so that when you return you're left moving day-to-day with no safety net the rest of the way. This thing about going on vacation but still moving is kind of silly. If you're going to make moves, then it's not a vacation in the RHP sense of the word. For situations like that, time-bank indeed seems sufficient.
Originally posted by IchibanovHow do you adjust things for an extra 36 days off out of 365 days? Also, if I vacation, I will make moves if I feel like it. It's my vacation to do as I please. When I went to St. Martin I would visit the cyber cafe once every other day and grab a FEN from a few games. In the evening, I sat on a balcony overlooking the ocean with a beer and a couple shots of rum looking over a position I set up on a wood and stone chess set I purchased.
I'll second Virtue's recommendation.
While it may be true that the timebank was once an alternative to vacation, I think people have adjusted their game loads to account for the extra room time-bank gives. And when I say people, I mean clan leaders as well as individuals. That's not knocking clan leaders. If a few clans start to take on more game load d ...[text shortened]... the RHP sense of the word. For situations like that, time-bank indeed seems sufficient.
Rather than you deciding how I can spend my vacation, how about I tell you how to use your timebank and time controls. If you are playing 3/7, consider 7/7 or 7/14 when you feel a vacation is going to be near. Consider playing that way all the time if you fear something more important than chess might come up. (believe me, it could happen!)
Timebank is a safety net, vacation is a harness that keeps you from falling to your death. There is no reasonable explanation to freeze one while the other is working in games that take months if not years to finish already.
P-
First off, I am in no way telling you how to spend your vacation. My point is that, if you're going to move while on vacation then, to RHP, that's not an actual vacation. You didn't go away, you just slowed down.
To me, vacations (or other things that take you out of the loop) are relatively short, concentrated slices of time. Playing every single game at long time controls because I *could* go on vaca (or into the hospital or a dozen other of life's happy little surprises) drags my entire playing schedule down all the time. If I could just be frozen for the actual time I need to be away, it'd a lot more targeted and should lead to quicker games overall.
Also, if the vacation system is setup so that you can't move until you come off of vacation, then people would be less likely to abuse it. You could even limit how soon after leaving vacation status one can re-enter to prevent a lot of problems. No uncloaking, making a bunch of moves and then going back under the shield. This could also be taken care of via abuse complaints to the admins, which is the method I'd actually favor. It wouldn't be too hard to spot those sorts of abusers.
Originally posted by IchibanovTo RHP? No, this is what a vacation is to RHP. Russ is the guy in charge here, and here is what he's said about vacations.
First off, I am in no way telling you how to spend your vacation. My point is that, if you're going to move while on vacation then, to RHP, that's not an actual vacation. You didn't go away, you just slowed down.
------------------------------------------------------------
"1) Players on vacation and their opponents can continue to move. It is only protection from timeout for a fixed number of days, nothing more.
2) A player must clear down games at risk from timeout before their vacation ends. Removal of the vacation flag will end any protection. The vacation page help will be updated to make this clear.
3) People can use their days as they please.
-Russ"
------------------------------------------------------------
Also, as much as people want to say people are 'abusing' vacation there is actually no way to abuse it. We can use it as we like. Punishing everyone over a few users who use their vacation time in a manner you don't prefer is ridiculous. 36 days is 36 days, and people can use them as they wish. Perhaps these users will have squandered their time, after all, it is only 36 days. If you feel you are playing someone who is getting extra time, take a 7 day vacation and move as you like. It's your option as well as theirs.
P-
If Russ' current policy is "what RHP is", then there's no room for change in the system as all. That's the policy under the current system. If it changed, I'd expect Russ might change the policy as well. Or maybe not.
I'm just looking for some way to go on vacation (or an unexpected work trip) without all my games ticking down to zero while I'm gone. I suppose that, given the choice between a frozen clock vacation system and timebank, I'd chose the frozen clock and ditch the timebank.
Still, I would argue that the timebank is an option. You could have the frozen clock vacation system and simply refuse games with timebanks. You say play 7/7 if I'm worried about the vacation thing. I say allow a frozen clock vacation and you go ahead and play 7/0 or 3/0 only if you're worried about games dragging on. That way both of us can get what we're after. Your way only works for you, not me.
Originally posted by IchibanovI'm just looking for some way to go on vacation (or an unexpected work trip) without all my games ticking down to zero while I'm gone...
If Russ' current policy is "what RHP is", then there's no room for change in the system as all. That's the policy under the current system. If it changed, I'd expect Russ might change the policy as well. Or maybe not.
I'm just looking for some way to go on vacation (or an unexpected work trip) without all my games ticking down to zero while I'm gone. I . That way both of us can get what we're after. Your way only works for you, not me.
The current system just uses up your timebank so that when you return you're left moving day-to-day with no safety net the rest of the way
You still have your TO, so make sure you don't play 1 day timeout and you'll still have a minimum of 3 days to make a move when you come back.
Also, if the vacation system is setup so that you can't move until you come off of vacation, then people would be less likely to abuse it. You could even limit how soon after leaving vacation status one can re-enter to prevent a lot of problems. No uncloaking, making a bunch of moves and then going back under the shield. This could also be taken care of via abuse complaints to the admins, which is the method I'd actually favor. It wouldn't be too hard to spot those sorts of abuser
Not only do you want to tell people what they can and can't do on their vacation, you actually want to report people to site admin as abusers? Have you actually thought about this? Surely, if I set my vacation flag cos I'm heading for the beach for a week, then, if I do get a chance to make moves, it might be only 30 minutes in an internet cafe. Under your system, I'd be an abuser for removing my flag, making moves, and then putting it back on.
Still, I would argue that the timebank is an option. You could have the frozen clock vacation system and simply refuse games with timebanks.
If you really think that the timebank should be frozen, why don't you tell your clan leader that you only want to play games with no timebank? That way it'd be frozen, albeit at 0.
Your way only works for you, not me.
Unfortunately, RHP can't cater to everybodies individual needs. There are 2 or 3 people who think that vacation is too long, 2 or 3 who think that clocks should stop, 1 or 2 who think that vacation isn't long enough, and many, many who are happy with the present system.
D
Originally posted by RagnorakAs for staying away from 1-day timeouts, I actually like the 1-day league I'm in right now. Except for sudden work trips, I'd prefer to play in it. So I could avoid them altogether, even though that's not what I want to do 90%-95% or the time, or lobby for a clock-freeze vacation. I choose to propose the latter as it would maximize my enjoyment of the site.
[b]I'm just looking for some way to go on vacation (or an unexpected work trip) without all my games ticking down to zero while I'm gone...
The current system just uses up your timebank so that when you return you're left moving day-to-day with no safety net the rest of the way
You still have your TO, so make sure you don't play 1 day timeout and yo ...[text shortened]... n isn't long enough, and many, many who are happy with the present system.
D[/b]
The abuse thing is just what I would see as a common sense alternative to a hard and fast rule about how fast you could re-cloak. By letting admins decide what's abuse and what's not, things such as you suggest could be allowed whereas someone who continually came out of vacation, made all their moves and then went back into vacation mode would be detected and dealt with. It is just a suggestion as to how to prevent what could be an obvious way to abuse the frozen clock system. However the admins would handle it would be up to them. I just felt obligated to present some ideas on how to deal with the inevitable abuse situations.
As for playing without timebanks, that's pretty much the situation I'm looking to avoid in the first place with the clock freeze. So I don't see how it's a viable option to play all my games, all the time as if I just came off of vacation 🙂.
And I realize RHP should cater to the majority. My posts in this thread are meant to:
1) Publicly support the OPs proposal. I don't see how we figure out what the majority is if people don't make their preferences known. Posting to this thread seems like a good way to do so. In fact, your statement that "1 or 2" support the idea is based on people who have spoken out. So I'm just making sure my "vote" is counted.
2) To put forth the reasons I think such a system would be better than the current one.
So, just to be clear...I'm not demanding anything. I'm not trying to tell anyone how to make use of this site. I'm just stating my preference and trying to discuss it's pros and cons in a rational way. Just so we can do away with the whole "you're telling me how to..." thing.
Originally posted by Virtue76Well, how long would you like to be able to delay a game for?
So are you against my idea?
Two things would almost make this vacation thing ok:
1. To be able to turn it off or on for open invites/friendly games
2. To be able to see the booked dates of your opponents.
[maybe it shouldn't be possible for it to be cancelled too]
Originally posted by Dr StrangeloveI think the 36 days you get for a vacation is long enough for a Timebank freeze.
Well, how long would you like to be able to delay a game for?
Two things would almost make this vacation thing ok:
1. To be able to turn it off or on for open invites/friendly games
2. To be able to see the booked dates of your opponents.
[maybe it shouldn't be possible for it to be cancelled too]
I agree, seeing someones booked vacation could help.
Im glad this has opened up a good debate. This is the 'Site Ideas' forum so I just wanted to put an idea up.