1. Joined
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    23 Jul '12 11:25
    if i posted this in the past already i apologise. I just thought this would be more interesting than discussing evolution or noahs flood again.


    http://www.cracked.com/article_15759_10-things-christians-atheists-can-and-must-agree-on.html

    summary:
    1. You Can Do Terrible Things in the Name of Either One

    2. Both Sides Really Do Believe What They're Saying

    3. In Everyday Life, You're Not That Different

    4. There Are Good People on Both Sides

    5. Your Point of View is Legitimately Offensive to Them

    6. We Tend to Exaggerate About the Other Guy

    7. We Tend to Exaggerate About Ourselves, Too

    8. Focusing on Negative Examples Makes You Stupid

    9. Both Sides Have Brought Good to the Table

    10. You'll Never Harass the Other Side Out of Existence


    Agree/Disagree ? Comments?
  2. Standard memberAgerg
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    23 Jul '12 11:42
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    if i posted this in the past already i apologise. I just thought this would be more interesting than discussing evolution or noahs flood again.


    http://www.cracked.com/article_15759_10-things-christians-atheists-can-and-must-agree-on.html

    summary:
    1. You Can Do Terrible Things in the Name of Either One

    2. Both Sides Really Do Believe What They' ...[text shortened]... le

    10. You'll Never Harass the Other Side Out of Existence


    Agree/Disagree ? Comments?
    I have a point to make about (1).

    You could actually do terrible things in the name of *anything*. Indeed potentially I could wreak havok, mayhem, destruction, and misery all in the name of the letter 'E' if I was so inclined. The more important question for me is: who actually does do (or has done) terrible things in the name of either one?. Moreover, if to reflect this, (1) was written as:

    1. As many people do terrible things in the name of one as people do in the name of the other

    then I would have to disagree.
  3. Joined
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    23 Jul '12 11:421 edit
    1. You Can Do Terrible Things in the Name of Either One
    I don't understand this one. Do people do terrible things in the name of their atheism? What are these things?

    I would be happy to accept "Both religious people and atheists do terrible things". But I would only be prepared to concede that religious people do it in the name of their religion as a general concept, and some of our religious friends may well want to challenge this.
  4. Account suspended
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    23 Jul '12 11:48
    Originally posted by Rank outsider
    I don't understand this one. Do people do terrible things [b]in the name of their atheism? What are these things?

    I would be happy to accept "Both religious people and atheists do terrible things". But I would only be prepared to concede that religious people do it in the name of their religion as a general concept, and some of our religious friends may well want to challenge this.[/b]
    Khmer Rouge.
  5. SubscriberProper Knob
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    23 Jul '12 12:21
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Khmer Rouge.
    The Khmer Rouge were not acting 'in the name of atheism'.
  6. Joined
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    23 Jul '12 12:22
    Originally posted by Agerg
    I have a point to make about (1).

    You could actually do terrible things in the name of *anything*. Indeed potentially I could wreak havok, mayhem, destruction, and misery all in the name of the letter 'E' if I was so inclined. The more important question for me is: who actually does do (or has done) terrible things in the name of either one?. Moreover, if ...[text shortened]... in the name of one as people do in the name of the other[/i]

    then I would have to disagree.
    it goes to show how humans are adept at fabricating excuses to justify any horrors they make (like you mentioned in your "E" example). the point of the article is to find 10 things both sides can agree on and this was one of the easier ones. the debate is about christians and atheists mainly, so this would be the first thing (and the easiest one) to agree on. it doesn't really matter who did "the most" because it would be a cynical thing to compare 1 million deaths to 2 millions and declare the former the winner.
  7. Joined
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    23 Jul '12 12:26
    Originally posted by Proper Knob
    The Khmer Rouge were not acting 'in the name of atheism'.
    they were atheists and as such it can be argued they held humans as little more than fuel for the state machine (paraphrase from the article) while adhering to a certain system (atheism)

    again, i am not arguing that atheism means sacrificing people casually, just that some psychopaths commited atrocious things while holding to it.
  8. Joined
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    23 Jul '12 12:27
    the article is pretty nice too, please don't limit to just discussing the summary i posted (it was mainly done to not have one of those spambots threads where only a link is posted)
  9. Cape Town
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    23 Jul '12 12:44
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    2. Both Sides Really Do Believe What They're Saying
    Many theists believe atheists are closet theists in denial.
    I believe some professed theists are faking it, and that some theists are genuine theists but much of what they say, they do not actually believe.

    3. In Everyday Life, You're Not That Different
    Some theists are very different (nuns, monks and suicide bombers come to mind).

    4. There Are Good People on Both Sides
    Some theists believe all non-believers in their particular religion are inherently bad.

    5. Your Point of View is Legitimately Offensive to Them
    I disagree. I don't find all theists views offensive and do not think any theist can legitimately find my views offensive.

    8. Focusing on Negative Examples Makes You Stupid
    No it doesn't. It makes you a pessimist.

    10. You'll Never Harass the Other Side Out of Existence
    But there is no harm in trying.
  10. Joined
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    23 Jul '12 12:57
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Many theists believe atheists are closet theists in denial.
    I believe some professed theists are faking it, and that some theists are genuine theists but much of what they say, they do not actually believe.

    [b]3. In Everyday Life, You're Not That Different

    Some theists are very different (nuns, monks and suicide bombers come to mind).

    4. Th ...[text shortened]... 10. You'll Never Harass the Other Side Out of Existence
    But there is no harm in trying.[/b]
    "Some theists are very different (nuns, monks and suicide bombers come to mind)."
    see number 8 (from my point of view, i might have used less strong adjectives)

    "Some theists believe all non-believers in their particular religion are inherently bad."
    some not all, hence the point of this article. we must agree to 3 and then 4 comes almost naturally. we are both decent people (the majority of theists and atheists, not jerry fallwell and chris hutchens respectively) and we mostly have the same values.

    "I disagree. I don't find all theists views offensive and do not think any theist can legitimately find my views offensive."
    the article goes further in this point. you are saying i am not going to heaven because there is no heaven, and furthermore, i get the same reward(lack of it) after death as hitler, who is quite a douche. i might find that offensive (well not me in particular, i am a live and let live dude, but other dudes). and it might go both ways: you as an atheist don't get to go to heaven because some dude you don't believe in says you can't unless you believe in him. again, not you particularly but some.

    "8. Focusing on Negative Examples Makes You Stupid
    No it doesn't. It makes you a pessimist."
    Giving the answer you gave makes you an optimist.

    seriously now, i don't judge the germans by what hitler did, the spanish by what torquemada did or the norwegians by what vikings and breivik did.

    "But there is no harm in trying."
    neither is in trying to count to infinity, but one might find several more productive endeavours
  11. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    23 Jul '12 13:332 edits
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    if i posted this in the past already i apologise. I just thought this would be more interesting than discussing evolution or noahs flood again.


    http://www.cracked.com/article_15759_10-things-christians-atheists-can-and-must-agree-on.html

    summary:
    1. You Can Do Terrible Things in the Name of Either One

    2. Both Sides Really Do Believe What They' le

    10. You'll Never Harass the Other Side Out of Existence


    Agree/Disagree ? Comments?
    1) agree - but it's a trivial point; you can do terrible things in the name of just about anything or anyone
    2) agree
    3) disagree - having lived lives on both sides, I've found there are some big differences in the lifestyles.
    4) agree
    5) disagree - I have had civil discussions with theists without either of us being 'offended'
    6) and 7) guilty - but mainly because I'm making jokes or listening to them
    8) strongly disagree.
    9) good what? ideas?
    10) agree
  12. Cape Town
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    23 Jul '12 13:56
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    "Some theists are very different (nuns, monks and suicide bombers come to mind)."
    see number 8 (from my point of view, i might have used less strong adjectives)
    Are you calling nuns and monks 'negative examples'? I certainly didn't intend it that way, but maybe that is how you see them. My point is that they live a very different life from the ordinary atheist.

    "some not all,"
    But if the two groups are fragmented within themselves then trying to say both groups agree on something together doesn't make much sense.
    Let me for example suggest:
    No 11: extremist religious people are bad. We can all agree on this except possibly the extremists.

    the article goes further in this point. you are saying i am not going to heaven because there is no heaven, and furthermore, i get the same reward(lack of it) after death as hitler, who is quite a douche. i might find that offensive (well not me in particular, i am a live and let live dude, but other dudes). and it might go both ways: you as an atheist don't get to go to heaven because some dude you don't believe in says you can't unless you believe in him. again, not you particularly but some.
    It depends how it is put. I find some things that God supposedly does/did offensive. I don't necessarily find it offensive that you believe God did those things.

    seriously now, i don't judge the germans by what hitler did, the spanish by what torquemada did or the norwegians by what vikings and breivik did.
    But those who do are not accurately described a 'stupid'. They are just wrong.

    neither is in trying to count to infinity, but one might find several more productive endeavours
    The unproductiveness of counting to infinity in no way reflects on how productive or unproductive another difficult endeavour may be. You are misusing analogies.
  13. Joined
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    23 Jul '12 15:00
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    Are you calling nuns and monks 'negative examples'? I certainly didn't intend it that way, but maybe that is how you see them. My point is that they live a very different life from the ordinary atheist.

    "some not all,"
    But if the two groups are fragmented within themselves then trying to say both groups agree on something together doesn't make much se ...[text shortened]... ive or unproductive another difficult endeavour may be. You are misusing analogies.
    about the nuns and monks, was simply trying to suggest they are the minority and not the average christian (theist).

    " I find some things that God supposedly does/did offensive."
    And were i a very devout christian, i might find you finding some things god did offensive, as offensive. there are many on this site who take personal offense whenever i suggest that the "Jericho " event and the conquest of Canaan in general is nothing short of genocide and ethnic and religious cleansing. so the offensive viewpoint claim is
    supported.

    "But those who do are not accurately described a 'stupid'. They are just wrong."
    i am wrong if i say that chinese people only speak chinese. i am stupid if i say that fossils were made by satan to deceive us.

    "The unproductiveness of counting to infinity in no way reflects on how productive or unproductive another difficult endeavour may be. You are misusing analogies."
    it was not meant to say that. it comments on the futility of one endeavour compared to another.
  14. Joined
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    23 Jul '12 15:01
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    1) agree - but it's a trivial point; you can do terrible things in the name of just about anything or anyone
    2) agree
    3) disagree - having lived lives on both sides, I've found there are some big differences in the lifestyles.
    4) agree
    5) disagree - I have had civil discussions with theists without either of us being 'offended'
    6) and 7) guilty - bu ...[text shortened]... m making jokes or listening to them
    8) strongly disagree.
    9) good what? ideas?
    10) agree
    3: look deeper. we both love, we both care, we both grow, we both have the same ideals.
  15. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    23 Jul '12 15:20
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    3: look deeper. we both love, we both care, we both grow, we both have the same ideals.
    Love, yes; care, yes; grow, not necessarily; same ideals, not hardly!
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