@galveston75 saidThe word 'trinity' is not in my biblical vocabulary because it is not used in the bible. So I do not understand your question, neither do I have any interest in discussing vague terms used by other religions.
@Rajk999
Is Jesus and Jehovah the same spirit being as in the trinity??
Do you have a response to my previous posts? In particular why is it that the bible says that Jesus will return, and you counter that with 'Jesus will not return in the flesh'? Why are you adding 'in the flesh' or 'as a human'?
Also why did the Watchtower change the wording of the bible ?
@diver saidSorry but I forgot I was going to comment on your post.
I’ve always thought they were a symbolic group equally representing people from all tribes.
In a nut shell the Jewish people as a whole wanted Jesus to be the earthly King of the Jewish people here on earth.
But when it became clear that this was not what Jesus was going to do,
they ( the Jews ) were behind the ones who had Jesus put to death.
As a result of them putting Jesus to death, it canceled that special relationship
that was between Jehovah and the Jews.
If that had not happened then yes the 144,000 would have been taken out of those 12 earthly tribes.
But since that happened, the 144,000 who will rule with Jesus in heaven for the thousand years that the bible speaks of are chosen out of all faithful humans here on the earth at their death.
Sorry for not quoting scriptures as I'm cheating doing this at work and don't have the time. I will add those later....
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@galveston75 saidHi Galveston, you did reply to me on page one; second post after mine, and you made several posts after that. I did read them.
Sorry but I forgot I was going to comment on your post.
In a nut shell the Jewish people as a whole wanted Jesus to be the earthly King of the Jewish people here on earth.
But when it became clear that this was not what Jesus was going to do,
they ( the Jews ) were behind the ones who had Jesus put to death.
As a result of them putting Jesus to death, it cance ...[text shortened]... ng scriptures as I'm cheating doing this at work and don't have the time. I will add those later....
I don’t accept that the 144,000 are taken from the contemporary religious group called “Jehovah’s Witnesses”, which I’m sure is the notion which you are wanting to convey. Fundamentally, because there is zero evidence for this in the Bible however one interprets the texts.
@galveston75 saidExcept God knew that Jesus was going to be put to death. Jesus knew it too. It was part of the plan from the beginning. Since He knew this in advance, why did He still cause John to write that the 144,000 would be 12,000 from each tribe of Israel?
Sorry but I forgot I was going to comment on your post.
In a nut shell the Jewish people as a whole wanted Jesus to be the earthly King of the Jewish people here on earth.
But when it became clear that this was not what Jesus was going to do,
they ( the Jews ) were behind the ones who had Jesus put to death.
As a result of them putting Jesus to death, it cance ...[text shortened]... ng scriptures as I'm cheating doing this at work and don't have the time. I will add those later....
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@diver saidHi. Sorry I guess I did. Getting so forgetful. Well Jehovah's original plan of who the 144,000 would be eventually drawn from were just a certain group of chosen humans that were of the nation of Israel, God's people. It was not open to any other humans on earth. But of course as time past things changed with his people as they lost favor with him. But this offer so to say has not changed.
Hi Galveston, you did reply to me on page one; second post after mine, and you made several posts after that. I did read them.
I don’t accept that the 144,000 are taken from the contemporary religious group called “Jehovah’s Witnesses”, which I’m sure is the notion which you are wanting to convey. Fundamentally, because there is zero evidence for this in the Bible however one interprets the texts.
The bible explains what he expected of his followers then, especially with the 144,000 and that has also not changed.
For instance the scriptures say that these "would be no part of the world" in regard's to staying neutral in not supporting any of mans governments. They are to remain neutral as their only allegiance is to Jehovah and his kingdom.
So do other religions do this? Do their members get involved in other governments of the world and vote, run for offices in them, etc, etc? The bible says: "You cannot serve two masters."
Do other religions follow this?
Also just a side note but at 2Peter 1:20-21 it says: "That no prophecy is open to private interpretation."
This would be saying that we as individual humans cannot be just coming up with what we think any scriptures in the bible says, just as we can't really with any subject we are not familiar with.
Another scripture say's that "All would be in total agreement" on any spiritual matter.
It really couldn't be any other way.
@galveston75 saidChristianity doesn't even follow it.
Hi. Well the original offer of who the 144,000 would be eventually drawn from were just a certain group of humans that were of the nation of Israel, God's people. Right? But of course they blew it. But this offer so to say has not changed.
The bible explains what he expects of his followers then and that has not changed. For instance the scriptures say that these "woul ...[text shortened]... in them, etc, etc? The bible says: "You cannot serve two masters."
Do other religions follow this?
Look at people like Charlie Kirk, all in for Trump, even though he's a convicted felon.
It says that the 144,000 would come from the tribes of Israel. Answer the question, and tell me that God has not 'changed his mind' since he had men write that in the Bible. As you say, the Jews 'blew it' with Jesus. Why tell everyone that the 144,000 would come from the tribes of Israel if he knew he would 'change his mind' later? That makes zero sense.
@Suzianne saidSo Suzianne but you aren't either.
Christianity doesn't even follow it.
Look at people like Charlie Kirk, all in for Trump, even though he's a convicted felon.
It says that the 144,000 would come from the tribes of Israel. Answer the question, and tell me that God has not 'changed his mind' since he had men write that in the Bible. As you say, the Jews 'blew it' with Jesus. Why tell everyone that the ...[text shortened]... come from the tribes of Israel if he knew he would 'change his mind' later? That makes zero sense.
@diver saidHi again and sorry I missed your post. I've got a lot going on right now with my son. Not bad, but just frustrating. Typical huh? Lol.
Hi Galveston, you did reply to me on page one; second post after mine, and you made several posts after that. I did read them.
I don’t accept that the 144,000 are taken from the contemporary religious group called “Jehovah’s Witnesses”, which I’m sure is the notion which you are wanting to convey. Fundamentally, because there is zero evidence for this in the Bible however one interprets the texts.
So I do understand your view and respect it completely. Let me ask you this...who were the first of this 144,000?
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@galveston75 saidNo comments????
Hi again and sorry I missed your post. I've got a lot going on right now with my son. Not bad, but just frustrating. Typical huh? Lol.
So I do understand your view and respect it completely. Let me ask you this...who were the first of this 144,000?
1 Pet 1:3,4 Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for you,
So who is the "YOU" this is speaking of being in heaven?
Another question.... Did Noah, Abraham, Lot and others who died before Jesus came to earth go to heaven? If so please show by scripture and if not where did they go?
@galveston75 saidIm pretty sure some of these old patriachs did. Enoch and Elijah are two clear examples. Let me know if you want the verses. The rest of them, died and were buried. We do not know if there are more such cases or what happened otherwise.
No comments????
1 Pet 1:3,4 Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for you,
So who is the "YOU" this is speaking of being in ...[text shortened]... efore Jesus came to earth go to heaven? If so please show by scripture and if not where did they go?
The bible is not a complete listing of all that happened over the 4,000 year span, so there is a lot of stuff that happened which was not recorded. People are really stupid when it comes to understanding this simple point.
@medullah saidAnd no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. (Joh 3:13 KJV)
@Rajk999
Elijah and Enoch certainly must have gone somewhere, but could it have been heaven in the light of John 3:13 ?
Heaven is described in many ways, and contain several levels. There is the heaven where the birds fly. There is the higher one containing the stars etc. There is the abode of God, which may be even further. Jewish writings contain descriptions of 7 heavens or 7 levels. Paul spoke of being caught up into the 3rd heaven.
So Paul saying no man has ascended into heaven could simply mean that no man went into the one where God dwells, especially as Paul himself spoke of being caught up into heaven [3rd level].
Also the bible was clear that Enoch did not die: By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; (Heb 11:5 KJV)