@ Prayer.

Originally posted by Agerg
chain sequence of events: it was arranged there would be a serpent, and an Eve that would be councelled by this serpent. This Eve then tempts Adam.

Your god started the chain, your god is at fault.
As for your claim of perfect intellect on the part of Adam? What is the scriptural basis for this? (and no, I want no fuzzy interpretation, I want an explicit statement this is indeed the case)

because its written in scripture, Adam was a perfect individual, therefore for the principle of justice to be met (God of course must meet his own standards of justice) another perfect life had to be given to propitiate for that which was lost, enter Jesus Christ, a perfect man.

As has been established dear Agers, God cannot be held responsible if those who choose moral independence and misuse the gift of free will.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
because its written in scripture, Adam was a perfect individual, therefore for the principle of justice to be met (God of course must meet his own standards of justice) another perfect life had to be given to propitiate for that which was lost, enter Jesus Christ, a perfect man.

As has been established dear Agers, God cannot be held responsible if those who choose moral independence misuse the gift of free will.

Still waiting for a demonstration Adam's "perfect intelligence" has any scriptural basis (that can be inferred without interpretation), indeed even if it is claimed Adam is perfect; a perfect creation from your god's perspective need not have perfect intelligence.
I see you ignore my other point.

Originally posted by Agerg
Still waiting for a demonstration Adam's "perfect intelligence" has any scriptural basis (that can be inferred without interpretation), indeed even if it is claimed Adam is perfect; a perfect creation from your god's perspective need not have perfect intelligence.
I see you ignore my other point.

excuse me? Its perfectly logical and reasonable Agers, prior to sinning Adam must have been perfect because that is what sin is, imperfection. There is no record of him having sinned prior to his inducement to disobey God, therefore we must conclude that he was without sin and thus perfect.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
excuse me? Its perfectly logical and reasonable Agers, prior to sinning Adam must have been perfect because that is what sin is, imperfection. There is no record of him having sinned prior to his inducement to disobey God, therefore we must conclude that he was without sin and thus perfect.

That is no implication of perfect intelligence Robbie (you are merely conflating terms so to try and bully through the claim of perfect intelligence; ie: perfect = no sin = perfect = perfect intelligence 🙄 )

Originally posted by Agerg
That is no implication of perfect intelligence Robbie (you are merely conflating terms so to try and bully through the claim of perfect intelligence; ie: perfect = no sin = perfect = perfect intelligence 🙄 )

physical perfection would mean what Agers? that the mind was in some way deficient? that his ability to reason was less than it should be despite the fact that he was without blemish, me thinks you are being not a little unreasonable Agers.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
physical perfection would mean what Agers? that the mind was in some way deficient? that his ability to reason was less than it should be despite the fact that he was without blemish, me thinks you are being not a little unreasonable Agers.

It is claimed man was created in the image of god; there is no way to infer this is anything other than a cosmetic feature. Indeed if we were to play the game you play then we could suppose created in the image of god = another entity with all the powers of god; you will then of course say that this is has no scriptural basis ... and fail to notice that your claim of perfect intelligence has no scriptural basis either.

Originally posted by Agerg
It is claimed man was created in the image of god; there is no way to infer this is anything other than a cosmetic feature. Indeed if we were to play the game you play then we could suppose created in the image of god = another entity with all the powers of god; you will then of course say that this is has no scriptural basis ... and fail to notice that your claim of perfect intelligence has no scriptural basis either.

there is no way to infer this is anything other than a cosmetic feature, oh but there is!!

ill shall address these points soon, please allow me a break, i am an old guy Agers, compared to you, i have a chess game to research and other stuff, been quite interesting 'rapping', with you so far, we'll make a theist of you yet 😛

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
there is no way to infer this is anything other than a cosmetic feature, oh but there is!!

ill shall address these points soon, please allow me a break, i am an old guy Agers, compared to you, i have a chess game to research and other stuff, been quite interesting 'rapping', with you so far, we'll make a theist of you yet 😛

I anticipate some long winded convoluted interpretation of scripture establishing what you want without noticing or acknowledging it also allows me (playing the same game as you) to to establish absurdity. If you do acknowledge the latter you'll merely claim what I establish using your reasoning isn't scripturally valid (failing to see that your interpretation fails in the same way). But don't let my pessimism stop you...do your worst.

You will make no theist out of me.

Oh and on the off chance you actually do try to push through some argument about Adam possessing perfect intelligence, please note that from this, it necessarily follows that the most profitable outcome would be sought by Adam (since if such was not sought then a more intelligent person would, knowing that maximising his gains is the most beneficial course of action to himself (and incurring no cost to others in this setting), desire to maximise his gains, and so seek such an outcome. This would contradict perfect intelligence).
Furthermore, it follows that the maximal gain is acheived by consistently failing to eat from the tree (since living in eternal paradise > dying), and so a person with perfect intelligence would always avoid eating from the tree - indeed any tempting on the part of an inferior* Eve (as you or the Bible claim (in so many words) she is) would be repelled by a perfect intellectual inner argument establishing that the sum of all gains and losses induced by succumbing to this temptation yields an overall gain which is less than the net gain by resisting it. (since otherwise, we can say that there was the potential for a more intelligent person that would make this calculation (this calculation includes, as a gain, the appeasement of his own physical desires of course) - contradicting Adam's perfect intelligence).
Thus we would then conclude Adam did not infact eat from the tree and your Bible is just a pile of lies.

Don't be discouraged by this preamble to a future argument however and just blithely carry on as you were :]


*and if you claim Eve was not inferior to Adam, at least in terms of intellect, then we conclude that the most profitable action, as would be argued successfully by Eve (and Adam would concur) is that they shouldn't eat from the tree of knowledge; and so she wouldn't be swayed by any arguments on the part of talking snakes - indeed she would certainly not have tempted Adam to opt for the lesser of two choices (eat or don't eat from the naughty tree). From this we would conclude your Bible is again false.

Originally posted by Agerg
I anticipate some long winded convoluted interpretation of scripture establishing what you want without noticing or acknowledging it also allows me (playing the same game as you) to to establish absurdity. If you do acknowledge the latter you'll merely claim what I establish using your reasoning isn't scripturally valid (failing to see that your interpretation don't eat from the naughty tree). From this we would conclude your Bible is again false.

I have already provided a basis for Adam having a perfect intellect, that you fail to understand either the relationship nor the correlation between relative perfection, sin and the capacity for a perfect intellect is not my fault and no amount of vain protestations with irrelevant details and fox like bushy tailed manoeuvres shall cover your tracks. Simply because you state something is absurd to you, in no way means that it is.

1.In the course of this discussion you have failed to state why God should be accountable for the actions of others given that they have the capacity of free will

2.Failed to adequately explain why given the fact that he put in place an immediate contingency plan he should be apportioned blame

3.Failed to state why given that Adam was physically perfect prior to sinning that we should adopt the idea that somehow he was intellectually deficient, given that sin is equated with perfection.

Actually i am thoroughly discouraged and i see no point in expressing anything - but hey thanks anyway. BTW snakes dont talk, i dunno if you were aware of that and lastly, the appeal to rebellion was made to Eves intellect and she was seduced intellectually to moral independence from God through her intellect.

I find it quite unnerving that you should engage in a scriptural discussion of the Biblical text and then pre-empt its inclusion with some complaint about long winded texts, it is after all only the most widely translated and published book in the entire history of humanity, you would think that such a book would be part of the curriculum of a balanced education, apparently not. 🙂

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I have already provided a basis for Adam having a perfect intellect, that you fail to understand either the relationship nor the correlation between relative perfection, sin and the capacity for a perfect intellect is not my fault and no amount of vain protestations with irrelevant details and fox like bushy tailed manoeuvres shall cover your tracks. ...[text shortened]... nk that such a book would be part of the curriculum of a balanced education, apparently not. 🙂

I'm tempted to post the entire chain of posts and responses from the both of us to show you that I have indeed met your every point; but then it would make for a long post, and seems I've scared you off! I am more than willing to do so if you request though; I'll even annotate them!

Anyhow, this debacle reminds me of a sketch from my favourite film.....

Brave Sir Robbie ran away...
Bravely ran away away!
When danger reared its ugly head,
He bravely turned his tail and fled

Yes brave Sir Robbie turned about,
and gallantly he chickened out.
Bravely taking to his feet,
He beat a very brave retreat

Bravest of the Brave Sir Robbie!!!


All you have is empty parting shots! But then if you do wish to honour your promise to address the points you said you would in your post prior I'll be waiting :]

Originally posted by Agerg
I'm tempted to post the entire chain of posts and responses from the both of us to show you that I have indeed met your every point; but then it seems I've scared you off! Reminds me of a sketch from my favourite film.....

Brave Sir Robbie ran away...
Bravely ran away away!
When danger reared its ugly head,
He bravely turned his tail and fled

Yes ...[text shortened]... r your promise to address the points you said you would in your post prior I'll be waiting :]

if you do wish to honour your promise to address the points you said you would in your post prior I'll be waiting????

why should I, what good will it do either me or you?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
why should I, what good will it do either me or you?

Perhaps you'll hit me with some argument or subtlety I have not seen thus far with all my discussions both online and in the real world on this topic; and then overwhelmed by your crushing logic see the error of my ways and convert! Or perhaps if this is a tall order, at least demonstrate you have the integrity to follow up on your earlier promise (which carried the non-too-subtle implication on your part my arguments would fail utterly) and show you can do more than weave empty sophistries and groundless assertions :]

As I edited in my last response (you may have missed it) I'm more than happy to provide you with the entire listing of posts you and I have both made in todays discussion (with annotation!) and demonstrate your post prior to this was as aimless as I say it is (subject to the condition you pick up the ball (it's in your court) and hit it back to me - by honouring that last promise of yours). I warn you it will be long though :]

Originally posted by Agerg
Perhaps you'll hit me with some argument or subtlety I have not seen thus far with all my discussions both online and in the real world on this topic; and then overwhelmed by your crushing logic see the error of my ways and convert! Or perhaps if this is a tall order, at least demonstrate you have the integrity to follow up on your earlier promise (which carri ...[text shortened]... te your post prior to this was as aimless as I say it is. I warn you it will be long though :]

No i read your post, indeed i have read all your posts in this thread, sometimes twice or three times so that i am certain that i have the point. I have simply lost any motivation to continue any discussion, you claim that it is cowardly, that my God is moronic, the Bible is false, I lack integrity, indeed why should i myself as a Christian be encouraged by such comments? If there is no benefit to be had in an exercise it is futile, is it not? life is too short for such futility, is it not, we would rather do better spending our time is something more productive, is it not the case. I doubt with my simple language and rather plain and ordinary arguments offer any such subtlety, nor do i harbour any pretensions of doing so. Perhaps someone else can.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
No i read your post, indeed i have read all your posts in this thread, sometimes twice or three times so that i am certain that i have the point. I have simply lost any motivation to continue any discussion, you claim that it is cowardly, that my God is moronic, the Bible is false, I lack integrity, indeed why should i myself as a Christian be encou ...[text shortened]... offer any such subtlety, nor do i harbour any pretensions of doing so. Perhaps someone else can.

Too bad! well hoping that we'll duel again in the future I hope this does not end on too sour a note. I'd offer you a game of chess but you outrank me by too wide a margin to gain any satisfaction from it.

Originally posted by Agerg
Too bad! well hoping that we'll duel again in the future I hope this does not end on too sour a note. I'd offer you a game of chess but you outrank me by too wide a margin to gain any satisfaction from it.

No Agers, nothing could be further from the truth, its not you, nor the debate, its just lack of motivation, take care until we meet again, pistols at dawn 🙂