"A 30 Second Argument for God"

Originally posted by Paul Dirac II
I say there is no eternal afterlife for you to lose out on by leaving your beliefs behind.

As far as the here and now, you save time that would be spent reading scripture and biblical commentary and listening to sermons, plus you save money on commuting-to-church costs and you save money dropped into the collection plate. You also cut out the passing-on of false beliefs to your friends and family.

Originally posted by Paul Dirac II
I say there is no eternal afterlife for you to lose out on by leaving your beliefs behind.

And what is the basis of this conclusion?

Paul Dirac II: I say there is no eternal afterlife for you to lose out on by leaving your beliefs behind.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
And what is the basis of this conclusion?

I would say that if you offer a convincing basis for me to reach the conclusion that there is an "afterlife", then I will subscribe to it.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Originally posted by Paul Dirac II
I say there is no eternal afterlife for you to lose out on by leaving your beliefs behind.

And what is the basis of this conclusion?

The Bible contains contradictions:

http://bibviz.com/

Therefore the Bible errs.

Therefore the Bible was not written/copied/translated by a loving, omniscient entity.

Therefore the Bible WAS written/copied/translated by fallible human minds.

Therefore the extraordinary claims of the Bible, e.g. an afterlife, are not supported by extraordinary evidence such as a perfect book.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Originally posted by black beetle
"I reject the hypothesis that something comes into being either without causes and conditions, or by means of an external cause..."

What then are those "causes and conditions"?

"This way, matter and mind are simply aspects of reality that share the same ultimate nature. It follows that I have not a Body ...[text shortened]... ption or definition of "BodyMind"? Also, on what authority would you conclude "I have no self."?

Edit: What then are those "causes and conditions"?

The causality laws which science posits at the classic and at the quantum level;


Edit: May I ask for a description or definition of "BodyMind"?

Check the person in the mirror in front of you and you will see your BodyMind;


Edit: Also, on what authority would you conclude "I have no self."?

On the authority of my evaluation; I have no self (I lack of inherent existence, in other words my bodymind and my parts cannot be conceived of as independent and self-sufficient entities) because of not being my parts, not being other than my parts, not being in my parts, not being that within my parts exist, not possessing my parts, not being the composite of my parts, and not being the shape of my parts;
😵

Originally posted by FMF
I would say that if you offer a convincing basis for me to reach the conclusion that there is an "afterlife", then I will subscribe to it.

The only reason to believe in an afterlife is Jesus Christ. If you do not believe Jesus is the Son of God that gave His blood on the cross to atone for our sins and that He arose from the dead after three days and ascended into heaven to be at the right hand of the Father, then there is no reason to believe in an afterlife.

The Holy Bible testifies of Him. The heavens and the earth declare His glory. The empty tomb in Jerusalem and the Shroud of Turin are evidence of His death and burial and resurrection. It is just up to you to seek the truth.

Originally posted by black beetle
Edit: What then are those "causes and conditions"?

The causality laws which science posits at the classic and at the quantum level;


Edit: May I ask for a description or definition of "BodyMind"?

Check the person in the mirror in front of you and you will see your BodyMind;


Edit: Also, on what authority would you conclude "I have no self." ...[text shortened]... t possessing my parts, not being the composite of my parts, and not being the shape of my parts;
😵

Originally posted by black beetle
"Edit: What then are those "causes and conditions"?

The causality laws which science posits at the classic and at the quantum level;

Edit: May I ask for a description or definition of "BodyMind"?

Check the person in the mirror in front of you and you will see your BodyMind.."
___________________________________________________________

black beetle, does the text of this zensite article correlate with your reply:

"thezensite" "The bodymind experience in Dogen's Shobogenzo: a phenomenological perspective Hakuin's Daruma David E. Shaner is Assistant Professor of Philosophy, Furman University, Creenville, South Carolina. Philosophy East and West 35, no. 1 (January 1985) © University of Hawai'i Press original source"

I. INTRODUCTION--METHODOLOGICAL CONSIDERATIONS

"The purpose of this article is to develop an interpretation of "bodymind" experience that will be helpful in understanding a few prominent philosophical doctrines described by Zen Master Dogen Kigen (1200-1253) in his Treasury of the Correct Dharma-eye (Shobogenzo). The term "bodymind" denotes the oneness of body and mind. The absence of the hyphen indicates that body and mind are pre-reflectively experienced as one. Body and mind can be interpreted as distinct entities only by reflectively abstracting mental and physical aspects of a person's original pre-reflective experience. The choice of "bodymind" over "mindbody," reflects the order in which these terms are usually written in Japanese by Dogen (shin jin, bodymind).

The "relationship " between the mind and body espoused in Dogen's philosophy may be explained in Western phenomenological categories. Even though people of different cultures may share the same fundamental experiential structures, the way in which these experiences are articulated and valued may vary appreciably. Therefore, a central experiential concern for one culture may be so peripheral to another that it is ignored philosophically and uncultivated as an ideal in everyday life. For this reason, the phenomenological method can be employed to describe the eidetic structure of the mode of experience to which bodymind awareness refers in the philosophy of Dogen. Accordingly, the thesis of this article is not only that the phenomenological method is a useful instrument for laying bare the structure of the awareness of bodymind, but also that the awareness of bodymind is a central theme through which the complex philosophy of Dogen may be penetrated..."

II. A PHENOMENOLOGICAL DESCRIPTION OF BODYMIND EXPERIENCE

"Using examples of everyday experiences common in the West, various aspects of bodymind experience will be articulated. This is an important starting place as we need to make explicit characteristics of this mode of awareness with which we may identify. Even though bodymind awareness is uncultivated as a philosophical ideal or model for daily life in the West, we may identify fleeting instances of this experience and then, by extension, begin to acquire an experiential insight into Dogen's perspective that gives greater value and significance to bodymind experience. The present phenomenological analysis will unpack the essential characteristics of the experiential correlates to which the terms body and mind refer. It will be clear from the beginning that the experiential correlates are unlike [p. 19] the abstract concepts body and mind. The phenomenological methodology will direct our attention to the primordial giveness of the act of experiencing body and mind. Since this is achieved within the phenomenological reduction of the natural standpoint, a description of the eidetic structure of the primordially experienced body and mind will follow no presupposed criteria other than the act of experience itself..."

III. ZAZEN AWARENESS FIRST-ORDER BODYMIND AWARENESS

"Since Dogen was one of the earliest Buddhist scholars to write in Japanese, his works constituted a contributing factor to the growth of the Soto sect during the Kamakura period (1185-1333). And, since his philosophy was guided by experience rather than theory, a form of radical empiricism began to emerge as a characteristic of later Japanese Buddhism. Dogen's contribution to the demystifying of Buddhist practice--by underscoring the experiential basis of complex doctrines--was monumental. His philosophy may be understood as a response to an apparent incongruence that Dogen had detected yet could not assimilate. The relationship between the theories of original enlightenment (hongaku) and acquired enlightenment (shikaku) achieved through cultivation seemed to be incompatible. In short, if we are originally enlightened, why do we cultivate that which is already innate? What is the meaning and purpose of cultivation? The apparent inconsistency between the doctrinal teachings found [p. 26] in the suutras and the practical disciplines of Tendai cultivation haunted Dogen until he left Mount Hiei, the center of Japanese Tendai Buddhism, in search of a resolution.

The rift between theory and practice became dissolved when Dogen suddenly achieved enlightenment when he heard his Chinese Zen Master Nyojo(k) (Chinese, Ju-ching, 1163-1268) explain, "In Zen, body and mind are cast off." Dogen had learned the importance of strict discipline and persistent zazen practice, and that proper cultivation (shugyo) included "casting off body and mind." Henceforth, casting off body and mind became the central principle of Dogen's practice and philosophy.(10) Since Dogen's Shobogenzo is based upon a description of the zazen experience, and since casting off body and mind is its goal, the casting off of body and mind may be interpreted as a key to understanding Dogen's philosophical positions.

Shinjin datsuraku: Shinjin datsuraku is a phrase traditionally translated as "cast off body and mind."(11) The importance of this phrase cannot be underestimated..."

http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/DogenStudies/BodyMind_Experience_in_Dogen_Shobogenzo.html

Originally posted by Paul Dirac II
The Bible contains contradictions:

http://bibviz.com/

Therefore the Bible errs.

Therefore the Bible was not written/copied/translated by a loving, omniscient entity.

Therefore the Bible WAS written/copied/translated by fallible human minds.

Therefore the extraordinary claims of the Bible, e.g. an afterlife, are not supported by extraordinary evidence such as a perfect book.

Paul, I respect your scholarship as well as your right to espouse a belief contrary to my own. Thanks for your replies.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Originally posted by black beetle
"Edit: What then are those "causes and conditions"?

The causality laws which science posits at the classic and at the quantum level;

Edit: May I ask for a description or definition of "BodyMind"?

[b]Check the person in the mirror in front of you and you will see your BodyMind.."
_________________ ...[text shortened]...

http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/DogenStudies/BodyMind_Experience_in_Dogen_Shobogenzo.html[/b]

Yes, shinjin datsuraku. To me, the reality of our own identity goes beyond the views of Anatman (No Self) and Sunyata (intangible, open and infinite Emptiness). To see directly the nature of self and stabilize that realization, to awake to who and to what you are, is awakening
😵

Originally posted by Paul Dirac II
The Bible contains contradictions:

http://bibviz.com/

Therefore the Bible errs.

Therefore the Bible was not written/copied/translated by a loving, omniscient entity.

Therefore the Bible WAS written/copied/translated by fallible human minds.

Therefore the extraordinary claims of the Bible, e.g. an afterlife, are not supported by extraordinary evidence such as a perfect book.

The belief is that all the books of the Holy Bible were written by men inspired of God. There is NO claim by the universal Christian Church that all the copyist or translators were inspired of God or that they were infallible.

I believe the Shroud of Turin is extraordinary evidence.

Shroud of Turin ~ Amazing Proof of the Resurrection of Jesus.

YouTube

Hoax or Proof of Resurrection the Shroud of Turin

YouTube

Originally posted by black beetle
Yes, shinjin datsuraku. To me, the reality of our own identity goes beyond the views of Anatman (No Self) and Sunyata (intangible, open and infinite Emptiness). To see directly the nature of self and stabilize that realization, to awake to who and to what you are, is awakening
😵

Thank you, bb. How did you discover these concepts and daily instruction and/or meditation required?

Originally posted by FMF
I would say that if you offer a convincing basis for me to reach the conclusion that there is an "afterlife", then I will subscribe to it.

Working on it.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Thank you, bb. How did you discover these concepts and daily instruction and/or meditation required?

I 'm studying specific religious and philosophic systems; in order to proceed, I forced my mind to serve me succesfully by means of meditation on ideas and objects; all feelings, ideas and objects turned out to be empty of inherent existence; when I saw clearly the lack of inherent existence, I was already in a specific mindstream; herenow emptiness and compassion are to me inseparable, and it is my knowledge that selflessness and compassion are the key of the causality
😵

Originally posted by black beetle
I 'm studying specific religious and philosophic systems; in order to proceed, I forced my mind to serve me succesfully by means of meditation on ideas and objects; all feelings, ideas and objects turned out to be empty of inherent existence; when I saw clearly the lack of inherent existence, I was already in a specific mindstream; herenow emptiness and ...[text shortened]... arable, and it is my knowledge that selflessness and compassion are the key of the causality
😵

"... herenow emptiness and compassion are to me inseparable, and it is my
knowledge that selflessness and compassion are the key of the causality."

bb, I respect your systematic devotion. Please develop the systems with an eye
toward pragmatic everyday applications and benefit. Thank you.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"... herenow emptiness and compassion are to me inseparable, and it is my
knowledge that selflessness and compassion are the key of the causality."

bb, I respect your systematic devotion. Please develop the systems with an eye
toward pragmatic everyday applications and benefit. Thank you.

May we take the hint and be kind to all the beings;
May All Beings Be Happy😵

Originally posted by black beetle
May we take the hint and be kind to all the beings;
May All Beings Be Happy😵

Would you agree that the happiness of 'happy beings' doesn't depend on pleasant circumstances or favorable status?