A basis for spirituality

Originally posted by Phlabibit
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=spiritual

Read all enteries.

Nyxie, is repentance covered in your list?

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=repentance

Phlabibit, my list is by no means all emcompassing. I was just tryiny to get the conversation flowing and hoping that others would add to them.

To answer your question though I believe :

Give back as much as you take, may have a point in repentance. If you do a wrong you must correct it.

I think this rule applies to someone that seeks a higher form of spirituality. If you see no wrong in your actions, you will not seek to correct them. So I guess you could live unrepentant and miserable.

If you decide later in life that you wish to follow the basic guidelines, you would first have to correct the imbalances you had created. I guess you could call this pennance.

Nyxie

Originally posted by Nyxie
Supose we could find common points for basic spirituality. Points a lot of religions have agreed with over the centuries. Stuff that just makes sense. Not specific to any relgion or way of life.

I'll give some examples and let's see if we can't find more like them:

First do no harm.

Give back as much as you take.

If someone gives you something, ...[text shortened]... cs. A way to see if we can find common ground among different philosophies and beliefs.

Nyxie

Would you say that spirituality amounts to basic human decency and moral awareness?

Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
Would you say that spirituality amounts to basic human decency and moral awareness?

Perhaps it would be more exact to claim that basic human decency and moral awareness, reflected in the principles you listed, are a precondition for spirituality, but not enough to constitute it.

I would say that spirituality additionally involves a conscious perception of sovereign value that unifies and directs the self by silencing some of its existential yearnings.

This immediately raises the question: what is sovereign value?

That's hard to say. It complicates matters that I believe people can be wrong about what sovereign value is, while being convinced they are right. The possibility of objective error, however, can never be ruled out.

Perhaps it is a sign of error when people insist they are right, whereas when they are really right, they realize that insistence is irrelevant, and don't feel motivated to insist. You are perceiving the right thing when willful striving ceases.

Actually, I now wish to redefine my terms. I would define the act of perceiving a sovereign value as *contemplation*, and the effect of perceiving it on the self as a whole--in conjunction with a background of basic human decency and moral awareness--as *spirituality*.

I hesitate to use the word *God*, because of its semantic complexity and historical baggage, but I think many people would happily use that in place of my term "sovereign value", because it feels appropriate to use it in this context.

In my view, you can endorse a lot of religion and superstition, and have lots of highly charged meaningful experiences, without having a perception of sovereign value. Indeed, I am not sure whether some of the former are not antithetical to the latter.

Originally posted by Pawnokeyhole
Perhaps it would be more exact to claim that basic human decency and moral awareness, reflected in the principles you listed, are a precondition for spirituality, but not enough to constitute it.

I would say that spirituality additionally involves a conscious perception of sovereign value that unifies and directs the self by silencing some of its exi ...[text shortened]... eign value. Indeed, I am not sure whether some of the former are not antithetical to the latter.

Well said.

I would say that human decency comes from our inherent desire towards a spiritual nature. Now most people would think of religion when I say this. But religion and spirituality are not the same thing.

You can be very spiritual and not believe in God.

Nyxie

Originally posted by Nyxie
You can be very spiritual and not believe in God.

What would be the defining characteristic of this non-theistic spirituality?

Originally posted by Nyxie
Well said.

I would say that human decency comes from our inherent desire towards a spiritual nature. Now most people would think of religion when I say this. But religion and spirituality are not the same thing.

You can be very spiritual and not believe in God.

Nyxie

I'm afraid I have to disagree with this idea. As I see it, human decency is a productive of social evolution, as are morals.

I also do not think spirituality is an inherrent thing. A questioning mind is not the same as a spiritual yearning/nature. I think humans have an inherrent need to question and in some this develops into a spirituality of sorts due to their personality and the influencing social factors they come into contact with. For me, the notion of spirituality must contain a sense of the supernatural, be that god, a supreme being, karma, or some universal energy that binds us together etc. As such I think it is unlinked to human decency which I would suggest is a bi-product of morals and social development and as such is a purely natural thing.

Originally posted by Starrman
I'm afraid I have to disagree with this idea. As I see it, human decency is a productive of social evolution, as are morals.

I also do not think spirituality is an inherrent thing. A questioning mind is not the same as a spiritual yearning/nature. I think humans have an inherrent need to question and in some this develops into a spirituality of sor ...[text shortened]... suggest is a bi-product of morals and social development and as such is a purely natural thing.

See that's the beauty of this. I don't have to convince you. I don't expect you to think like I do. You're free to disagree with me at any time.

It may be the very lifeforce of us all that binds us together. Without this we are weaker. I myself choose to believe in more then what I see. I can't explain how a television works, but I watch it just the same.

As the level of humans on the planet increases so does this overall lifeforce, driving us to higher level in our existence. Advancements in science and technology. All working towards a greater good.

Again the point of this thread was'nt to convert anyone, but to find basic common ideas in spiritual beliefs.

Nyxie

Originally posted by Nyxie
Supose we could find common points for basic spirituality. Points a lot of religions have agreed with over the centuries. Stuff that just makes sense. Not specific to any relgion or way of life.

I'll give some examples and let's see if we can't find more like them:

First do no harm.

Give back as much as you take.

If someone gives you something, ...[text shortened]... cs. A way to see if we can find common ground among different philosophies and beliefs.

Nyxie

Maybe I'm missing something here, but wouldn't the simple basis of spirituality be the existence of a human spirit/soul that outlasts our mortal/physical existence? Further, the state of happiness (or otherwise) of the spirit would depend on certain actions we take in this life.

AFAICS, that is the only common factor in spirituality. Some spiritual philosophies/religions advocate the "do no harm" ideology, some others have no problems about going to war and/or destroying other cultures.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Maybe I'm missing something here, but wouldn't the simple basis of spirituality be the existence of a human spirit/soul that outlasts our mortal/physical existence? Further, the state of happiness (or otherwise) of the spirit would depend on certain actions we take in this life.

AFAICS, that is the [b]only common factor in spirituality. Some ...[text shortened]... rm" ideology, some others have no problems about going to war and/or destroying other cultures.[/b]

what is afaics?

Originally posted by Nyxie
See that's the beauty of this. I don't have to convince you. I don't expect you to think like I do. You're free to disagree with me at any time.

It may be the very lifeforce of us all that binds us together. Without this we are weaker. I myself choose to believe in more then what I see. I can't explain how a television works, but I watch it just the sa ...[text shortened]... thread was'nt to convert anyone, but to find basic common ideas in spiritual beliefs.

Nyxie

I quite agree Nyxie, I wasn't intending to change your point of view at all, I was merely stating mine. Apologies if I sounded over-compulsive.

One of my favourite authors (Milan Kundera) entertains a notion that the more people there are on the planet, the heavier the weight of the mind, which I think ties in with your comment on the universal link. For me it makes a little sense as well, in the way that the interactions of people cause more stimuli (communication, development of information, stress, anger, etc.). The more the people, the more the interaction and so the greater the 'weight' of the mind. (Not sure if I explained that well or not.)

So even though I deny the supernatural I can see the benefit and am happy for people to entertain whatever beliefs they desire. Spirituality is personal choice and I wouldn't dream of telling anyone otherwise 🙂

Originally posted by Starrman
I quite agree Nyxie, I wasn't intending to change your point of view at all, I was merely stating mine. Apologies if I sounded over-compulsive.

One of my favourite authors (Milan Kundera) entertains a notion that the more people there are on the planet, the heavier the weight of the mind, which I think ties in with your comment on the universal link. ...[text shortened]... ey desire. Spirituality is personal choice and I wouldn't dream of telling anyone otherwise 🙂

And nor would I. I just wish people who expressd a certain claim, would remain consistent in it's realization.

Nyxie

Originally posted by Nyxie
And nor would I. I just wish people who expressd a certain claim, would remain consistent in it's realization.

Nyxie

how so?

Originally posted by Nyxie
what is afaics?

As Far As I Can See

Originally posted by Starrman
how so?

If a religion claims thou shalt not murder, I expect no murder to be condoned. If the religion states it is wrong to judge, I expect to hear no judging. If a religious leader says it would be cool for everyone to just get along for a change, I expect the followers to demonstrate this.

Nyxie

Originally posted by lucifershammer
As Far As I Can See

Which religion advocates destroying other cultures? I wish to study this.

Nyxie