1. Subscribersonhouse
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    09 Jun '15 10:382 edits
    Since it is a deity it would know in advance, the result of any test given by said deity, such as Ab with knife in hand ready to kill his son to satisfy his god's question as to Ab's loyalty. Or Eve not passing the test, eating the forbidden fruit. That deity would have known full well if Eve would pass or not that test.

    It all shows no deity was needed for any human religion since the main thing that happens with these religions, Christianity, Islam, Hindu and others is religious strife and warfare, my god told me to kill you.

    Or the ridiculousness of a god displaying jealousy. Right. A god capable of breathing in entire universes jealous of humans. What a crock.

    It is as obvious as the nose on my face these were attributes given to a man made deity so the humans the clerics wished to control would have human similarities they can identify with. Humans could never invent the actual moral values of a real god so they just invent what they think such a god would entail.

    A deity would have moral values far and away better than any human and would never have set up such cruel religions.

    If it needed sycophants, it could just as easily have said to every human on the planet at the same time in their own language, 'here is how it is..."
  2. Standard memberKellyJay
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    09 Jun '15 11:02
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Since it is a deity it would know in advance, the result of any test given by said deity, such as Ab with knife in hand ready to kill his son to satisfy his god's question as to Ab's loyalty. Or Eve not passing the test, eating the forbidden fruit. That deity would have known full well if Eve would pass or not that test.

    It all shows no deity was needed ...[text shortened]... said to every human on the planet at the same time in their own language, 'here is how it is..."
    From the church of sonhouse who knows what and why an all knowing God would and
    would not do.
  3. SubscriberFMF
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    09 Jun '15 11:09
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    From the church of sonhouse who knows what and why an all knowing God would and
    would not do.
    The thread isn't about "the church of sonhouse"; its an OP that asks you "why an all knowing God" ~ by which he means yours ~ would "need to test humans".
  4. Cape Town
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    09 Jun '15 11:10
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    From the church of sonhouse who knows what and why an all knowing God would and
    would not do.
    And you think you know better? How?
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    09 Jun '15 11:251 edit
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Since it is a deity it would know in advance, the result of any test given by said deity, such as Ab with knife in hand ready to kill his son to satisfy his god's question as to Ab's loyalty. Or Eve not passing the test, eating the forbidden fruit. That deity would have known full well if Eve would pass or not that test.

    It all shows no deity was needed ...[text shortened]... said to every human on the planet at the same time in their own language, 'here is how it is..."
    Again, as always, your thinking is inverted in respect to God's intentions.

    The "test" isn't for God's benefit but ours.
  6. Subscribersonhouse
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    09 Jun '15 12:24
    Originally posted by josephw
    Again, as always, your thinking is inverted in respect to God's intentions.

    The "test" isn't for God's benefit but ours.
    Right. Spoken like the fine programmed religious mind. 'oh, now you think you know the mind of god card'. it turns out that our innate intelligence DOES give us at least some of the attributes to know what a god may think. Which is exactly why we can introduce human characteristics into our version of said deity. We can sculpture our god to be whatever we think it should be. Jealous god, no problem, shazaam, instant jealous god. Let's see, what else can we make it like humans. Oh yeah, man is now created in god's image. That's a good one, lets people think their god is some Zeus like figure floating on a cloud looking down on humans. Sure, and I have a GREAT bridge for sale in Brooklyn.
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    09 Jun '15 12:48
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    From the church of sonhouse who knows what and why an all knowing God would and
    would not do.
    do you enjoy testing your dog? do you get angry with it if it fails the test? do you punish that dog and 7 generations of his offspring for crapping on the porch?


    if you don't (you're a psychopath if you do) don't you think that someone as far (or more) removed from us intellectually as we are from dogs will let it slide if we mess up sometimes? especially when he was the one who put temptation in front of us?
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    09 Jun '15 13:11
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Right. Spoken like the fine programmed religious mind. 'oh, now you think you know the mind of god card'. it turns out that our innate intelligence DOES give us at least some of the attributes to know what a god may think. Which is exactly why we can introduce human characteristics into our version of said deity. We can sculpture our god to be whatever we t ...[text shortened]... loating on a cloud looking down on humans. Sure, and I have a GREAT bridge for sale in Brooklyn.
    " 'oh, now you think you know the mind of god card'."

    What god is it that tells you I don't?
  9. Territories Unknown
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    09 Jun '15 13:25
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Since it is a deity it would know in advance, the result of any test given by said deity, such as Ab with knife in hand ready to kill his son to satisfy his god's question as to Ab's loyalty. Or Eve not passing the test, eating the forbidden fruit. That deity would have known full well if Eve would pass or not that test.

    It all shows no deity was needed ...[text shortened]... said to every human on the planet at the same time in their own language, 'here is how it is..."
    A deity would have moral values far and away better than any human and would never have set up such cruel religions.
    How (exactly) does one achieve moral values "far and away better?"
    If an action in any given situation is considered moral, how could someone act more moral in that same situation?

    Your math is a bit fuzzy for objective thinking.
  10. Standard membersonship
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    09 Jun '15 14:122 edits
    Since it is a deity it would know in advance, the result of any test given by said deity, such as Ab with knife in hand ready to kill his son to satisfy his god's question as to Ab's loyalty. Or Eve not passing the test, eating the forbidden fruit. That deity would have known full well if Eve would pass or not that test.


    It is interesting that in the case of Abraham's offering of his only son, God says "For NOW I know ..." . It is interesting that He didn't say "For I ALWAYS knew ...".

    It wonderful that the Bible alludes 100% systemization.

    "And he [the Angel of the Lord] said Do not stretch out your hand upon the boy, nor do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." (Genesis 22:12)


    The paradox of God's foreknowledge and man's free will, being discussed for centuries by minds as smart and much smarter than any posting here, is that, a paradox.

    We're not likely to solve it on this thread couched in its old familar skeptical grumbling.

    As for me, I am still not sure that God foreknowing something means it has been predetermined. It seems "unfair". But maybe that is just our human viewpoint of it from our limitation as created beings in time.

    I have learned to USE this mystery for my spiritual advantage praying like this -

    "Lord Jesus, You KNEW that I would love you today. May it be so then. Lord Jesus, You KNEW from before I was born that I would be victorious in You over this besetting sin. Praise God for your wonderful foreknowledge. Lord then let it be so.

    Abba Father, you KNEW before the world was, that I would be an overcomer through Your grace to reign in life. Praise You for your foreknowledge. Let it be so in You. Amen."


    Instead of pouting over the unfairness of God's foreknowledge, why not turn it to your spiritual advantage in faith? It works. I think God is happy when I apply faith to Him in this way for a positive result.
  11. Standard membersonship
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    09 Jun '15 14:143 edits

    It all shows no deity was needed for any human religion since the main thing that happens with these religions, Christianity, Islam, Hindu and others is religious strife and warfare, my god told me to kill you.


    What did Jesus do to you?
    I mean I know it feels good to imagine all Christians do is kill others.

    Does that mean you have absolutely no self control and that if you believe in Christ you'll be a murderer overnight?

    What did Jesus do to you?
    He's the one saying " Follow Me. "


    Or the ridiculousness of a god displaying jealousy. Right. A god capable of breathing in entire universes jealous of humans. What a crock.


    This is another rather stupid thought.

    Why not turn it around in faith for a positive progress towards God?

    " Lord God, I would like to commit this sin and that sin. But Lord God I am softened in my heart to hear how deeply you long for my love. Why Lord God you are even JEALOUS that I have no other thing that I uplift above you.

    Thankyou Lord Jesus for your jealous love. You loved me so much Lord. I open up to give myself more to you. You loved me SO very much, even to be jealous."


    How effective it is to turn all these kinds of skeptical complaints into prayers of faith. Love is as strong as death. Much waters cannot quench love nor do floods drown it.

    Use the Divine Jealousy in faith to grow spiritually.

    "Seal me as a seal on your heart, As a seal on your arm; For love is as strong as death, Jealousy is as cruel as Sheol.
    Its flashes are the flashes of fire, a flame of Jehovah.

    Many waters cannot quench love, nor do floods drown it.
    If a man gave all the substance of his house for love, It would be utterly despised." (Song of Songs 8:6,7)


    Praising God for His jealous and saving love is more joy producing than fuming about it.
  12. Standard membersonship
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    09 Jun '15 14:163 edits
    You go ahead and fume sonhouse.
    Some of us are going to let God's love transform us into the very image of the Beloved - Jesus Christ.

    That is our destiny.


    It is as obvious as the nose on my face these were attributes given to a man made deity so the humans the clerics wished to control would have human similarities they can identify with.


    While sonhouse probably is totally in the darkest night as to the destiny of man in history, the Bible reveals the result of God's "jealous" love.

    He will "marry" a group of people whom He calls "the bride" and "the wife of the Lamb" . That means God's salvation will produce a collective group of billions of people who match Him.

    For why would God seek eternal companionship with something that does not match His own nature ? Revelation 21 and 22 reveal that the "city" New Jerusalem is a symbol of the work of God's jealous salvation from all idols of man.

    The redeemed will come to match Christ, correspond to Christ, reflect fully Christ, and be a counterpart of Christ for man's enjoyment and God's glory forever.

    I don't know what sonhouse is living for except much bitter, bitter bitching about the God revealed in the Bible and Jesus the Savior.

    I imagine sonhouse complaining on his death bed that - If he ONLY had had more time to bitch and moan about this loving, jealous God ...
    Rather sad.
  13. Subscribersonhouse
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    09 Jun '15 17:531 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    Since it is a deity it would know in advance, the result of any test given by said deity, such as Ab with knife in hand ready to kill his son to satisfy his god's question as to Ab's loyalty. Or Eve not passing the test, eating the forbidden fruit. That deity would have known full well if Eve would pass or not that test.


    It is interestin ...[text shortened]... h? It works. I think God is happy when I apply faith to Him in this way for a positive result.
    Well, your god is a few bulbs shy of being a real deity then. "for NOW I know" implying this alleged deity does not have infinite knowledge, if it did it would have known in advance what old Ab would have done and thought, before Ab was born.

    You on the one hand are saying God didn't know the outcome of Ab's test but there is this:

    http://www.gotquestions.org/infinite-God.html

    So are THOSE bible verses also wrong? It seems to contradict the "THEN I knew'' idea in the Ab story.

    You can't have it both ways. Either your deity is infinite, all knowing or it isn't. If it is, the Ab story is BS. If it isn't the John verses are BS. Which is it?
  14. Subscribersonhouse
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    09 Jun '15 19:45
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Well, your god is a few bulbs shy of being a real deity then. "for NOW I know" implying this alleged deity does not have infinite knowledge, if it did it would have known in advance what old Ab would have done and thought, before Ab was born.

    You on the one hand are saying God didn't know the outcome of Ab's test but there is this:

    http://www.gotque ...[text shortened]... wing or it isn't. If it is, the Ab story is BS. If it isn't the John verses are BS. Which is it?
    And that answer, the test is for the benefit of humans, that seems all well and good if said deity also ANSWERS the test with a pat on the back or some such. How many such tests have humans actually had that pat on the back by god itself? Well then, not many eh.

    So the pat on the back by this god helping out a handful of people but not meaning much to the 7 billion REST of us then is it?
  15. Subscribermoonbus
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    09 Jun '15 20:312 edits
    Abraham was changed by being tested; that was the purpose of the test: that abraham be changed, not that God should come to know something he did not know before. It is not the deity who needs to be tested; it's the human who needs change, and a test is the mechanism of that change. Of course God knew the outcome. For God, NOW is ALWAYS, they are equivalent.

    That God is beyond good and evil is axiomatic. The Book of Job spells it out. God makes a bet with the devil; he bets that the devil cannot bring Job to waiver in his faith. The devil does his worst, killing Job's family and animals, and smiting him with diseases. Still Job will not waiver in his faith. At last, in desperation, Job cries out, "God, declare thyself, am I a pious man, or are these terrible trials punishment for impiety?" [I paraphrase here.] God's answer is most illuminating; basically, God says: "Shut up you little pipsqueak. I am everything, you are nothing. I make the sun to shine, and you can't make a maggot. I do as I please, and you do my bidding." No man may judge the morality of God's actions or omissions; that is the lesson of the Book of Job.
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