Originally posted by Rajk999
The expression 'born again' has be very much abused by Christianity and it means many things to as many people. So maybe you can define what you mean by it.

In any case do you believe Judas Iscariot was born again? This would explain much.

I will let the bible show some examples...
Rom 10:8-13
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
NKJV

1 John 3:1-3
Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
NKJV

Acts 2:38-39
Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
NKJV

Acts 8:37-39
Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may."

And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."

38 So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.
NKJV

Acts 10:44-46
While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
NKJV

As far as Judas? I would have to say no, because it was not yet available.
Will he be resurrected and judged? Yes, and what happens after that we don't know..

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I will let the bible show some examples...
Rom 10:8-13
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes ...[text shortened]... available.
Will he be resurrected and judged? Yes, and what happens after that we don't know..

'Born again' was not available in the time of Christ and his disciples? Nonsense.

Anyway you are going off the thread topic. If you can show me how this relates to the topic and the opening post then we can continue otherwise I have nothing to add. Start another thread if you like on what it means to be born again.

Suffice it to say that you have no clue who is born again. Only Jesus Christ knows that, simply because born again can be a physical or superficial act and that is of no value to ones salvation. The 'born again' which is of interest to God and Christ is 'born again' of the heart and mind. So unless you claim to know peoples heart and mind then discussing it is pointless.

Originally posted by Suzianne
This is a reach.

There is righteous, and there is unrighteous. God doesn't concern himself with other, bogus criteria.

If you say so.

Originally posted by Rajk999
This thing called 'love' and 'hate' when used by God has to be taken with a pinch of salt. God does not used these terms the same way man will use them.

Jacob's line was chosen to be the one from which the Jews & Christ would emerge. That is all that means. God certainly had his reasons which are not known to us. Esau's line was not chosen for that purpose but Esau and his descendants still enjoyed great wealth and prosperity.

You give a reason, then say we don't know the reasons. 😛

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
You give a reason, then say we don't know the reasons. 😛

Actually no. I gave the end result of God's choice. The reason for Gods choice is not known to us. If I had to guess the reason would be that Jacob had the qualities/ characteristics/ gene pool or whatever God were looking for in a man to father the nation that would lead to Christ. Esau did not fit the bill.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Actually no. I gave the end result of God's choice. The reason for Gods choice is not known to us. If I had to guess the reason would be that Jacob had the qualities/ characteristics/ gene pool or whatever God were looking for in a man to father the nation that would lead to Christ. Esau did not fit the bill.

Ok, so you think God chose Jacob for Israel, even though you are not sure why Jacob was better suited. Fair enough.

That being said, why the hate of Esau? Why did God feel the need to bash Esau? Couldn't he have said, "Jacob will become Israel, my chosen, but Esau is also a decent guy and he'll do fine."

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
Ok, so you think God chose Jacob for Israel, even though you are not sure why Jacob was better suited. Fair enough.

That being said, why the hate of Esau? Why did God feel the need to bash Esau? Couldn't he have said, "Jacob will become Israel, my chosen, but Esau is also a decent guy and he'll do fine."

Well thats a fair question about Esau. I have often wondered about stuff like that especially as there are so many such cases in the bible.. Cain and Abel, 7 of Sauls grandsons hanged for the sins of Saul. The thing is that thousands of years of history cannot be told comprehensively so that there is full understanding of all that happened in just a few short pages. Cain must have done some other stuff that God disliked and Esau as well. Its just not there in the Bible. There is a lot of Jewish literature out there of stories handed down from generation to generation and I find it paints a clearer picture of some of these events. Maybe you can have a read of that.

Originally posted by Rajk999
'Born again' was not available in the time of Christ and his disciples? Nonsense.

Anyway you are going off the thread topic. If you can show me how this relates to the topic and the opening post then we can continue otherwise I have nothing to add. Start another thread if you like on what it means to be born again.

Suffice it to say that you have no cl ...[text shortened]... rt and mind. So unless you claim to know peoples heart and mind then discussing it is pointless.

"There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?" -- John 3:1-12, KJV

There is much in John 3 that has become the bedrock of Christianity.

Perhaps you should give all of it a read, verses 1 through 36, including the final third where John the Baptist is speaking, and add it to your remarkably short canon of Matthew 5-7.

Originally posted by Rajk999
..is the god which many modern Christians worship.

Rajk, do you know what an oxymoron is?

Are you suggesting that the God of the Bible is as you describe?

You have a warped mentality about Christians.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Actually no. I gave the end result of God's choice. The reason for Gods choice is not known to us. If I had to guess the reason would be that Jacob had the qualities/ characteristics/ gene pool or whatever God were looking for in a man to father the nation that would lead to Christ. Esau did not fit the bill.

Or conversely the whole thing could just be another story made up to convince people of the validity of the total made up nature of the entire religion.

Creative people can create ANY religion with no god needed.

Which is not the same thing as saying there are no gods or is no god.

We can certainly call into question the godliness of religion though.

Which I do on a regular basis.

Based on the idea that Jesus himself supposedly said the end days would be coming before some of you die, you can read that in Mathew. That would indicate to me the end days were supposed to have happened 2000 years ago but here we are two millennium later, no end days, no rapture, only people SAYING the end days are here, which is total BS, they have been saying that for the last 2000 years and EVERY ONE has failed. As will these latest last day charges.

What I don't understand is why people can still believe in this BS after 2000 years of such end day failures.

That and the commandment 'thou shalt not kill', but in the 20th century over 100 MILLION people died by despots and I don't care if said despots were frothing at the mouth atheists, there were still 100 million killed outright but not a whisper of a word from your alleged god.

So the real commandment is, thou shalt not kill, but if you do, make it big time and I won't do anything about it.

The whole thing is patently ridiculous but people continue to fall for all this BS now going into the third millennium.

Which is a total waste of human resources when there are so many REAL problems to solve right here on Earth. But theists retort with the idea that we are headed for heaven so it doesn't matter HOW poorly we treat the Earth, it will all be judged later on after the rapture.

It is really an indication of just how stupid the human race is to fall for this nonsense for millennium after millennium.

It's high time the human race grew out of such dogma and become truly mature as a race which will never happen when we are so firmly entrenched in such dogmatic nonsense that keeps us from dealing with the REAL problems of living in our modern world.