I brought up my issue with the Trinity because to ME, it matters regarding the original point of this thread......A Jealous God. I have 'seeked' for answers on this subject, and found that nowhere in the Bible does Jesus actually say straightforward and without a doubt that He is God. He makes subtle, confusing statements like "The Father and I are one".....well, I don't get it. I need not concern myself with other gods.....with Buddah, or Mohammed, or Rah....or whoever. It is amazing to me that God wants our love and devotion, and then creates (to me) a seemingly impossible task of really knowing who He is. Why the Trinity, why the doubt?? The entire Godhead issue is completely perplexing. Other members of this site have tried to explain, thank you, but if we decide to worship Jesus as God....I think we need to make sure we are correct....hence the 1st Commandment. Todays Jewish people only worship the God of Abraham, as in the Old Testament.....they do NOT have this issue. What if Jesus is truly the Son of God, and God is actually....God, and wants his due credit and worship?? It doesn't take away from Jesus's deity, as God's son (no mention of God's wife, or how Jesus came to be in the Heavens). 'sonship' asked the question....is God's jealousy problematic? Yes, to me it most certainly is, and I want to be correct and not have God unleash his jealousy, or wrath.
I am sorry if I am not clearly making my point, this Trinity issue causes me grief and I seem to write with frustration.
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Originally posted by Proper Knob
A standard anitheist attack on God? Good grief. You mean I asked a couple of questions.
Yes, I think it is pretty standard. So far all your comments have had a focus - God ..."Jealous"? That means He's no better than us.
I say standard attack because from the first that the enemy of God spoke it was to denigrate His character. That is to plant the thought in Eve that God was an evil and imperfect tyrant, a selfish despot -
" And the serpent said to the woman, You shall not surely die! For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will become like God knowing good and evil," (Genesis 3:5)
"Standard attack" I say because in principle you too wish to cause your listeners to doubt God's good heart, doubt God's good motive, doubt God's pure love and portray God as the evil one. So I have to say, since the thrust of your comments are the same as serpents, it is a pretty "standard attack" on God.
Again, how can a perfect being suffer from such base human emotions as anger and jealousy? Seems odd to me. Correct me if I'm wrong but your answer just seems to be - it's beyond our understanding.
It may seem odd.
But there is a justified jealousy even that we human beings could have as I think Kelly has pointed out.
If some other man began to flirt with his wife, the jealousy he felt would really be a righteous jealousy. Let's not forget the exhortation of Paul - "Be angry and do not sin".
So we cannot say all "jealousy" is unrighteous.
In some cases if a man or woman was not jealous it would indicate that that one had no emotion.
So while agreeing is may "seem odd" it is not so odd that make God and imperfect God.
As for something of God being "beyond our understanding," there are somethings that are. Yet the experience of God with us can be had thought the nature of God contains some matters "beyond our understanding."
I mean I can come to this God who is jealous that I have no other gods before Him and say "Dear God, I don't fully understand You. Some things seem odd. But I thank You that I can have fellowship with You and enjoy Your eternal love."
I don't give up coming to God because I believe as I grow in the enjoyment of God understanding probably will come. In the natural realm as maturity occurs understanding of life also deepens.
The history of Israel in the Old Testament shows me that God could be jealous without being fidgety about His jealousy. I mean God shows Himself to be exceedingly long suffering, very patient, full of mercy and understanding. He seems to have tolerated long some waywardness of His beloved people.
In this passage we see God returning to espouse His nation to Himself again after a long lapse in their love for Him -
"And I will betroth thee unto Me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in loving kindness, and in mercies. I will even betroth unto Me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know Jehovah" (Hosea 2:19,20)
Unlike us His jealous love puts up with way more than most of us would put up with. The future tense of this passage indicates that God to a SECOND betrothing of God's people to Him. That means the divorced wife is brought back to the Lord as her Husband.
This means God in His jealousy is eager to give the unfaithful "Wife" another chance. The use of the word "betroth" three times is touching and reveals how strong God's love, - IE - "I will marry you ... I will marry you ... I will marry you!" And this is after his counterpart people have gone way astray after "other gods" for a long long time.
So the "jealous" God may "seem odd" to both of us. I think the whole story has to be considered.
Originally posted by chaney3As an atheist (and someone who has drunk 3 glasses of wine this evening) please feel at liberty to disregard my advice.
I brought up my issue with the Trinity because to ME, it matters regarding the original point of this thread......A Jealous God. I have 'seeked' for answers on this subject, and found that nowhere in the Bible does Jesus actually say straightforward and without a doubt that He is God. He makes subtle, confusing statements like "The Father and I are one"... ...[text shortened]... learly making my point, this Trinity issue causes me grief and I seem to write with frustration.
If God exists, i don't think it is his intention to cause you grief or frustration. It is logical that he would wish to communicate with you directly, so that there was no room for ambiguity about his truth and love for you. I therefore surmise that clarity and truth will not be found externally, but only internally; not in a dusty book but in your own heart. Men tend to over rationalize religion and their words end up becoming a barrier rather than a beacon of light.
Originally posted by sonshipYou're comparing my questions on a chess website forum to those of a talking serpent? Interesting comparison you have going on there. Some might say it's a little off the wall.A standard anitheist attack on God? Good grief. You mean I asked a couple of questions.
Yes, I think it is pretty standard. So far all your comments have had a focus - God ..."Jealous"? That means He's no better than us.
I say standard attack because from the first that the enemy of God spoke it was to denigrate His character. That ...[text shortened]... "jealous" God may "seem odd" to both of us. I think the whole story has to be considered.
Yes you are correct, all my comments have been focused on God - "Jealous"? That is the premise of the OP is it not?
Originally posted by Ghost of a DukeBooks only get dusty when we do not open, read and apply their contents.
As an atheist (and someone who has drunk 3 glasses of wine this evening) please feel at liberty to disregard my advice.
If God exists, i don't think it is his intention to cause you grief or frustration. It is logical that he would wish to communicate with you directly, so that there was no room for ambiguity about his truth and love for you. I t ...[text shortened]... er rationalize religion and their words end up becoming a barrier rather than a beacon of light.
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Originally posted by chaney3When the scriptures refers to God being "jealous" it is not referring to one that covets his sheep, but one who wishes to shepard His sheep and protect them and wishes that they do not stray away so wolves can come in and kill them.
I brought up my issue with the Trinity because to ME, it matters regarding the original point of this thread......A Jealous God. I have 'seeked' for answers on this subject, and found that nowhere in the Bible does Jesus actually say straightforward and without a doubt that He is God. He makes subtle, confusing statements like "The Father and I are one"... ...[text shortened]... learly making my point, this Trinity issue causes me grief and I seem to write with frustration.
You speak of the Jews [Israel) having trouble accepting Jesus as the Son of God and as also part of your problem with the Trinity. You must not forget that the Apostle Paul informed us that the jews are blinded in part until the full amount of Gentiles have accepted the Kingdom of Christ.
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
(Romans 11:25 KJV)
Originally posted by Ghost of a DukeI am someone that believes that I was created, that the earth was created. In the Bible, Jesus states the He is the ONLY way to the Father. I am trying to understand this, not to solve a puzzle, but because it seems that MY eternity is at stake here. I would rather not be sent to a 'hell' because I didn't 'get it'. As far as your comment on trusting my internal instincts on who God may be......it sounds tempting....but, I feel that 'something' must be the right answer. Example: In the 12 steps of AA, they tell people that it is NOT required to believe in any specific God....you just trust the 'God of your own understanding'. That would mean that anyone could believe in whatever 'God' they choose.
As an atheist (and someone who has drunk 3 glasses of wine this evening) please feel at liberty to disregard my advice.
If God exists, i don't think it is his intention to cause you grief or frustration. It is logical that he would wish to communicate with you directly, so that there was no room for ambiguity about his truth and love for you. I t ...[text shortened]... er rationalize religion and their words end up becoming a barrier rather than a beacon of light.
If it said anywhere in the Bible.....hey, human....you will never get it....but don't worry, you will be in Heaven regardless, then no worries. Otherwise, if there is a 'correct' God, and a 'correct' way to Heaven.....I want to know. I don't think this is a mere simple problem that one will just tell me.....Hey, just believe....in the same way Nike says 'Just do it'.
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-Removed-I have been doing battle with this for 10 years......I have spent many, many hours reading scripture and books, and talking with Priests and Pastors.....to NO avail. I am NOT going to find my answer in 10 minutes now because I read some scriptures.
By the way, I have studied the Old Testament, and NOWHERE in there do the prophets talk about God Himself becoming a human to save the world. They all refer to a 'Messiah'. It is claimed that Jesus is that Messiah in our New Testament, and Jesus never actually said that He Himself is God. So, where did that theory come from?? I am beginning to think that men made that call. Why, I don't know. Again, my issue is not the fact that Jesus is the Son of God, but why does anyone believe that He is God?? He never said it Himself and it is not anywhere in the Old Testament.
I think that this issue is relevant to the 'Jealous God' issue. Why are we worshipping Jesus as God......and would God be jealous if we have it wrong?? It is a fair question, and I am not going to 'get it' overnight by reading scripture, I have tried that.
Added thought: In the New Testament, Jesus prays to 'the Father', and talks with 'the Father' probably a hundred times. Is He praying to Himself, and talking to Himself?? This is problematic to me, and cannot just be easily dismissed by telling me....Hey, just believe it. I only replied to this thread because of the 'jealousy' issue, and the 1st Commandment. If that did not exist, then would the Jesus/God issue really matter, probably not.