2 edits
Originally posted by sonship
[quote] To be honest, the idea that a perfectly loving, righteous, just, etc God would sentence persons to eternal torture for lack of belief in something seems just impossibly stupid. I don't know if you've noticed but it's 2013. You might want to step out of the dark ages, get with the times and start exercising your brain a bit. In this post we see good e ed if someone rises from the dead." (See Luke 16:19-31 for the full teaching)[/b]
Suppose the truth within man's conscience finally catches up with him ? Suppose he has denied his sinfulness for his whole life against the conviction of his conscience, the word of God and the Holy Spirit. But then confronting the truth which he can no longer suppress his own conscience cries out within him for justice?
In that case hell is a final escape. The pain of being in the light of God is less than the crying out of the God created conscience that he be dealt with because of his transgressions.
In this case the rejector of God finally has a rendevous with his conscience of truth. What he has done is so awful that he himself hates himself. His own conscience cries out for punishment.
Most atheists I know do not hate themselves and do not cry out for agony and suffering and punishment to befall themselves. You seem to have fashioned a pretty absurd caricature of the non-believer here, one which I would think is irrelevant to the discussion.
Most atheists I know do the best they can living by their own lights; they endeavor in their relationships and projects; they are not perfect by any means and they are aware of that and often endeavor at self-reform, but they don't feel any need to prostrate themselves over such things; and it also just happens to be the case that there is not sufficient evidence at their disposal to elicit the belief that any god exists. This is altogether a pretty reasonable characterization of the average atheist. How about sticking to something like this, rather than fashioning some ridiculous caricature of the atheist?
Now if such a state exists, wouldn't it be God's responsibility to disincentivize man from wanting to go there ?
Would it not be God's responsibility that this place totally absent of God is also totally absent from blessing of which God is the source ?
First of all, you seem to be making the same notional error as our friend Suzianne made in one of her previous posts. You act like the atheist believes God exists but just stubbornly refuses to relate with Him or chooses to be separated from Him, or some such. You and Suzianne apparently both missed the memo that the atheist does not believe any god exists in the first place. So, even if in fact the atheist is wrong about that; nevertheless, God's sentencing the atheist to a state of suffering or some such would be in retaliation to simply a lack of belief, not to some choice the atheist makes. That's rather painfully absurd that God would eternally punish a person for lack of belief, which is largely something not even within the person's active control.
Furthermore, even if you were correct that the atheist chooses separation from God, it certainly does not follow that it is God's responsibility to make such a state totally devoid of all blessing. That's absurd. A landlord lives separated from his tenants (and, in fact, many tenants want absolutely nothing to do with their landlords except for contractual relationship), but it certainly does not follow that it is the landlord's responsibility to make living conditions hellish for those tenants.
Then in terms which every human can grasp it could be conveyed that this place "free" from the Source of all happiness should be unpleasant and avoided. And His redemption has furnished a gracious way of avoiding that Godless eternity.
I have no idea why you think God is the source of all happiness. That's absurd, and no atheist has any reason to accept that. There seem to be many and varied sources of happiness for a person. Regardless, this idea that God doesn't impose the suffering on those in hell but that it just happens as a natural consequence of His absence also seems notionally confused. Suffering is not merely a privation of happiness, just like pain is not merely a privation of pleasure.
Originally posted by SwissGambitYeah, seems difficult for some to disassociate from their belief, even in hypothetical terms. Reminds me of the time (times, plural, actually) when knightmeister told me that the best way for me to investigate the question of God's existence was for me to pray openly and honestly unto God for Him to provide evidence that would elicit from me the belief that He exists. 🙄🙄
Yeah, she's probably one of those 'there are no true atheists' types.
Most atheists I know do not hate themselves and do not cry out for agony and suffering and punishment to befall themselves. You seem to have fashioned a pretty absurd caricature of the non-believer here, one which I would think is irrelevant to the discussion.
The condition I was discribing was AFTER the last judgment:
"And I saw the dead, the great and the and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by the things which were written in the scrolls, according to their works." (Rev. 20:12)
1.) I was not speaking only of athiests.
2.) I was talking about when this infallible record of their lives is gone over by God.
This is time when no more lies will exist. The truth can no longer be avoided though it may have been for a man's entire life.
So it is not irrelevant.
Most atheists I know do the best they can living by their own lights;
I understand. But atheists and religious folks alike mistake themselves for the people they want to be. This final judgment at the great white throne is a matter of what is the real infallible truth of one's being.
God has warned us all before hand in spades - "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."
Some respond and turn to the Savior Christ.
Others ignore until that time of rendevous with reality in God's light.
they endeavor in their relationships and projects; they are not perfect by any means and they are aware of that and often endeavor at self-reform, but they don't feel any need to prostrate themselves over such things; and it also just happens to be the case that there is not sufficient evidence at their disposal to elicit the belief that any god exists. This is altogether a pretty reasonable characterization of the average atheist. How about sticking to something like this, rather than fashioning some ridiculous caricature of the atheist?
According to the New Testament God requires vengence against two kinds of people -
1.) Those who do not know God.
2.) Those who do not obey the Gospel of Christ.
"... rest with usat the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with the angels of His power, in flaming fire,
Rendering vengence to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His strength when He comes to be glorified in His saints ... " (2 Thess. 1:7b-10)
If my interpretation is correct, here are two matters calling down the vengence of God in eternal destruction:
1.) Not knowing God (which would be athiesm)
2.) Not obeying the gospel of Christ (rejection of Jesus the Lord and Savior)
My interpretation may be less than perfect. However, I think clearly the safest thing is to respond to the good news that Jesus saves. This of course demands that one believe that there is God.
jw:
Now if such a state exists, wouldn't it be God's responsibility to disincentivize man from wanting to go there ?
Would it not be God's responsibility that this place totally absent of God is also totally absent from blessing of which God is the source ?
LJ:
First of all, you seem to be making the same notional error as our friend Suzianne made in one of her previous posts. You act like the atheist believes God exists but just stubbornly refuses to relate with Him or chooses to be separated from Him, or some such. You and Suzianne apparently both missed the memo that the atheist does not believe any god exists in the first place.
I understand that some people simply know God is not real to them. However the Bible says that no man is with an excuse to not realize there is a Creator of eternal power and divine characteristics. The Bible says such are holding down the truth in unrighteousness. The creation has made it clear to all people that a Creator of eternal power brought about the creation.
Now I have to believe the atheist or the Bible.
I believe that Bible. However I acknowledge that the atheist certainly can say that personally God is not real to them and for all intents does not exist. Yet Romans says when we look at creation we are without excuse.
You see to admit "God is not real in my life" is one matter.
To proport "There is no God" is another and the Bible says there is no excuse for anyone to say that.
This actually is not as bad as some may think.
But I won't go into that now.
So, even if in fact the atheist is wrong about that; nevertheless, God's sentencing the atheist to a state of suffering or some such would be in retaliation to simply a lack of belief, not to some choice the atheist makes.
Vengence is retaliation. Our sins are ultimately against God. This is why He said "Vengence is Mine, says the Lord. I will repay."
Do you think your words as an atheist may not have caused some other person to turn into your error as well. You close the door of salvation to yourself and enfluence others who drank in your poisoness words of there being no God.
Day by day the refuser of Christ is accumulating wrath against himself.
"But according to the hardness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God." (Rom. 2:5)
Day by day as the atheist prolongs God's kindness towards him designed to lead him to repentance, his refusal and enfluencing others with his wicked unbelief is accumulating more and more wrath against himself for the day God's rigteous judgment is revealed.
But if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, God is faithful. You will be saved from this wrath of the righteous God.
That's rather painfully absurd that God would eternally punish a person for lack of belief, which is largely something not even within the person's active control.
But if your blasphemies against God encrease in your anger then you are caught in a perpetual cycle of provoking His righteous anger.
You are caught in an eternal inescapable emnity which forever calls for His punishing anger.
I have to suspend for this evening. But Christ's love and sacrifice at Calvary is the way to be reconciled to God. That should be good news. And God commands all men to hear and believe the Gospel.
Goodnight.
Let me see if I have this right.
Your god created hell but god isn't responsible for the punishment there.
Your god created the dirty ol' devil but again god is not responsible
Your god created us but god isn't responsible for god's creation
Your god knows all and can do all but is not responsible for god's actions
The last reported sighting of your god is several millennia ago
Every decade or so a new variation of worship is invented to your god
I figure people have an obsessive need to feel connected to some higher being. But they are carrying this OCD thing a bit too far. 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄
Originally posted by LemonJelloYeah, talking to imaginary friends is kind of cute when you're 5 years old, but not so great after that.
Yeah, seems difficult for some to disassociate from their belief, even in hypothetical terms. Reminds me of the time (times, plural, actually) when knightmeister told me that the best way for me to investigate the question of God's existence was for me to pray openly and honestly unto God for Him to provide evidence that would elicit from me the belief that He exists. 🙄🙄
Originally posted by sonshipAnd suppose it turns out you are as full of shyte as a christmas turkey?
[quote] To be honest, the idea that a perfectly loving, righteous, just, etc God would sentence persons to eternal torture for lack of belief in something seems just impossibly stupid. I don't know if you've noticed but it's 2013. You might want to step out of the dark ages, get with the times and start exercising your brain a bit. In this post we see good e ...[text shortened]... ed if someone rises from the dead." (See Luke 16:19-31 for the full teaching)[/b]
Originally posted by galveston75you copied and pasted this G-man the grammar and spelling are too good 🙂
Well he created us. If one were to first think about a plan to make or create something such as a watch there are many things to consider. Now this is a none living object first of all but there are still boundries and laws of physics that this creation would have to follow to work correctly, right? Even if you had all the right parts to make this inst ...[text shortened]... r, do not steal, do not commit adultry, etc, all came from God's original laws to his people.
Manny
I admit that I struggle with this one...In the end I have to just rest in the fact that God is just and He is the creator. I struggle with the idea that while there will be beings that are in eternal bliss with the knowledge that there are other beings in eternal torment. I think it can be argued both ways as far as looking at the scriptures. The annihilation theology or the eternal punishment theology I think both views can be argued but only one can be true. One thing that is obvious from scriptures is that God himself is the one to fear as Jesus said "Fear God for He is the one who can destroy both body and soul in Hell" And I believe that warning but Well what does that mean? Besides that it should be avoided. God is just and there will be a day of reckoning because God's justice demands it. Many come to religion or God for fear of hell (I know I did originally as I felt I deserved it) but my challenge to people is get to know God and have a relationship with Him and then you realize why did I come to the kings table? To eat crumbs ? No God loves man and has provided a way to avoid hell and have a relationship with the creator of the universe at the same time. Romans 1:20 reads.....
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
www.biblegateway.com NASB version
Manny