A loving God would never send anyone to hell

Originally posted by RJHinds
PREPARE YOURSELF FOR HELLFIRE!

I've got my 1,000,000 SPF sunblock. I'm ready.

My only caution to any professing Christians (including myself) don't be so presumptuous as Christ said many who are first will be last and many who are last shall be first. Also in the book of Revelation a Myriad upon Myriads of people from every tribe tongue and nation are seen standing before God. Jesus also will say too many who said Lord Lord and Jesus will say depart from me I don't know you.

Manny

Originally posted by sonship

I'm having trouble parsing this, and I just have no idea what your main thesis is.

Consider some general atheist, who does not believe God exists based on his honest take on whatever evidence there is at his disposal. Do you have any reasons to think that God would be justified in providing for this person's eternal suffering?

I'm s rth ?

You do not have to account to me. Give your honest take on that to yourself.

Ok, here's my honest take since you asked. I do not think there are any humans who instantiate, or even come close to instantiating, the concept 'God' (taken in the conventional understanding of a personal creator who is all-knowing, all-powerful, all-good). That also goes for persons from known history; if there were any who came close to instantiating such a concept, I am not aware of them.

Ok, now quid pro quo. Do you have an answer to my question, which was the folllowing?

Consider some general atheist, who does not believe God exists based on his honest take on whatever evidence there is at his disposal. Do you have any reasons to think that God would be justified in providing for this person's eternal suffering?

Originally posted by LemonJello
Ok, here's my honest take since you asked. I do not think there are any humans who instantiate, or even come close to instantiating, the concept 'God' (taken in the conventional understanding of a personal creator who is all-knowing, all-powerful, all-good). That also goes for persons from known history; if there were any who came close to instantiating ...[text shortened]... think that God would be justified in providing for this person's eternal suffering? [/quote]

Sounds like object oriented programming. Instantiation ?
That works in a way I guess.
Are you a Java developer ?

Consider some general atheist, who does not believe God exists based on his honest take on whatever evidence there is at his disposal. Do you have any reasons to think that God would be justified in providing for this person's eternal suffering?

My opinion is that a man convincing himself that there is no God and no evidence for God's existence is in for a rendevous with the undeniable.

It is not my place to judge the man. But God has a infallible record of each person's doings. There are will be no mistakes. There will be no omissions. There will be no errors of any kind. God's record of our doings in an infallible record.

The record as to the sins one has commited is not erased by that person's "honest" assumption that there is no evidence for God's existence.

But there is a mighty eraser, an effective obliterator of the sinner's guilt. That is the blood of Christ. And such a one who believes has been judged already on the cross of Christ at Calvary. There on the cross the infallible record of his deeds, is wiped clean away because Christ has been judged on the sinner's behalf.

Paid in Full.

The fact that you hard question me about this matter indicates to me that you are not totally positive that you are safely exempt from the judgment of this God you want to deny.

I think those who are very sure that there is no God are probably not participating in these discussions. It is not worth even talking about to them.

Regardless, they too I am sure are on a rendevous with the ultimate reality which does not go away because of any wishful thinking. But there is GOOD NEWS. There is very GOOD NEWS - including -

" .. the word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith which we proclaim,

That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

Romans 10:9 - That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes on Him shall not be put to shame."

Originally posted by sonship
Sounds like object oriented programming. Instantiation ?
That works in a way I guess.
Are you a Java developer ?

[quote]Consider some general atheist, who does not believe God exists based on his honest take on whatever evidence there is at his disposal. Do you have any reasons to think that God would be justified in providing for this person's eter ...[text shortened]... e Scripture says, "Everyone who believes on Him shall not be put to shame." [/b]

He's a philosopher. If he was a programmer, he would say there are no instantiations of the Deity class. 🙂

Ok, here's my honest take since you asked. I do not think there are any humans who instantiate, or even come close to instantiating, the concept 'God' (taken in the conventional understanding of a personal creator who is all-knowing, all-powerful, all-good). That also goes for persons from known history; if there were any who came close to instantiating such a concept, I am not aware of them.

Not even "come close" ?

Well, when I examine the life of Jesus both the attributes of "all-knowing" and "all-powerful" occasionally manifest themselves.

Sometimes the limitations of a typical man were expressed. Yet at other times the limitlessness of God was also expressed.

The Gospels make it explicitly clear that at times "all-knowingness" was displayed in His behavior. And at times clearly "all-powerfulness" was also manifested.

In John 11 He raised a man Lazarus from the DEAD ! And He did so with a word - "Come out."

And His persecutors clearly were hostile towards Him because He both claimed and acted like God -

"But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts,

Why is this man speaking this way? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins except One, God ?

And immediately Jesus, knowing fully in His spirit that they were reasoning this way within themselves, said to them, Why are you reasoning about these things in your hearts?

Which is easier: to say to this paralytic, Your sins are forgiven, or to say, Rise and take up your mat and walk?

But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority to forgive sins on earth - he said to the paralytic, To you I say, Rise, take up your mat and go to your house.

And he rose and immediately took up the mat and went out before them all, so that they were all amazed and glorified God, saying, We have never seen anything like this. " (Mark 2:6-12)

Both attributes of all-knowingness, authority to absolve man from sins, and power to control nature were manifested and that before the experts in the theological systems of the day.

No one even comes close you say? Jesus came close enough to get Himself executed. And then He rose from the dead. If He was not God become a man He deserves an academy award for acting the part. That is a part which He definitely believed Himself and taught.

Notice something else also. Jesus didn't say "which is harder" but "Which is easier".

For nothing is too hard for God. So He said "Which is easier".

Originally posted by menace71
My only caution to any professing Christians (including myself) don't be so presumptuous as Christ said many who are first will be last and many who are last shall be first. Also in the book of Revelation a Myriad upon Myriads of people from every tribe tongue and nation are seen standing before God. Jesus also will say too many who said Lord Lord and Jesus will say depart from me I don't know you.

Manny

Thank you Manny. I feel this post deserved more than just a thumbs up.

Don't be presumptuous is the best advice Christians could get.

As I've said, I do believe Christianity, especially the teachings of JC are a valid tool for Divination. I've seen it first hand. It changes people's lives for the better, and that is a great thing.

But to deny the all other religions/spiritualities is fraught with danger.

Besides as Frank Zappa put it so succinctly : "One size does not fit all."

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Thank you Manny. I feel this post deserved more than just a thumbs up.

Don't be presumptuous is the best advice Christians could get.

As I've said, I do believe Christianity, especially the teachings of JC are a valid tool for Divination. I've seen it first hand. It changes people's lives for the better, and that is a great thing.

But to deny ...[text shortened]... ith danger.

Besides as Frank Zappa put it so succinctly : "One size does not fit all."

Frank Zappa?

That's the rock musician who railed against censorship of artistic expression and put out an album "We're only in it for the money."

Where's sonhouse when you need to talk about contradictions ?

lol

Originally posted by sonship
Sounds like object oriented programming. Instantiation ?
That works in a way I guess.
Are you a Java developer ?

[quote]Consider some general atheist, who does not believe God exists based on his honest take on whatever evidence there is at his disposal. Do you have any reasons to think that God would be justified in providing for this person's eter ...[text shortened]... or the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes on Him shall not be put to shame."

My opinion is that a man convincing himself that there is no God and no evidence for God's existence is in for a rendevous with the undeniable....

I really don't understand why you would think any of this addresses my question. I was asking you to provide reasons for thinking that God would be justified in providing for the person's eternal suffering. Unless I am missing something, you have not provided any.

The fact that you hard question me about this matter indicates to me that you are not totally positive that you are safely exempt from the judgment of this God you want to deny.

I think those who are very sure that there is no God are probably not participating in these discussions. It is not worth even talking about to them.

You're mistaken. I am very sure your god does not exist. I am also very sure there are no reasons (no good ones, anyway) that you can provide in answer to my question. Of course, I am willing and open for you to prove me wrong on that. But so far, your failure to answer the question is consistent with my expectation.

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] Ok, here's my honest take since you asked. I do not think there are any humans who instantiate, or even come close to instantiating, the concept 'God' (taken in the conventional understanding of a personal creator who is all-knowing, all-powerful, all-good). That also goes for persons from known history; if there were any who came close to instantiat ...[text shortened]...
For nothing is too hard for God. So He said [b]"Which is easier". [/b]

Yes, when you examine the bible you are convinced of its historical veracity. But you asked for my honest take, remember? My honest take does not align with yours, clearly.

Be careful, for you are starting to sound a little like Dasa, who basically blanketly assumes that any take that differs from his own is thereby dishonest in some fashion.

You're mistaken. I am very sure your god does not exist. I am also very sure there are no reasons (no good ones, anyway) that you can provide in answer to my question. Of course, I am willing and open for you to prove me wrong on that. But so far, your failure to answer the question is consistent with my expectation.

I answered your question adaquately. There is no answer which you will probably find reasonable.

I think I also wrote (not sure ) that I said it was not MY JOB to judge you.
It is not before me that all will come in what the Bible calls the final "great white throne".

It is not my place to judge the man. But God has an [edited] infallible record of each person's doings. There [edited] will be no mistakes. There will be no omissions. There will be no errors of any kind. God's record of our doings in an infallible record.

You spoke of your "honest" disbelief. I said almost liturally "In my opinion ..." didn't I ?

My opinion is that a man convincing himself that there is no God and no evidence for God's existence is in for a rendevous with the undeniable.

I don't know how often Dasa says "In my opinion ..." .

Finally, I respect that you find my post not reasonable.
However I have a very similar sense concerning you saying that no one "even comes close" to reminding of what an all-knowing and all-powerful God would be like should there possibly any human in history to manifest such characteristics.

As you feel left with no good reasons so I also feel left by you with no good reasons why Jesus Christ does not "even come close".

You may vouch for your sincerety over and over again. Somehow it still appears to me to be ..... I don't want to offend you. I don't know how to put it.

Let me just say that I think you have to work pretty hard in your mind to say Jesus doesn't even come close. I see no good reasons in this logic to so drastically remove Christ from the running.

Originally posted by sonship

You're mistaken. I am very sure your god does not exist. I am also very sure there are no reasons (no good ones, anyway) that you can provide in answer to my question. Of course, I am willing and open for you to prove me wrong on that. But so far, your failure to answer the question is consistent with my expectation.

I answered your ques ...[text shortened]... ood reasons in this logic to so drastically remove Christ from the running.

No you did not adequately answer my question. Again, I asked for reasons in virtue of which one should think that God's providing for this person's eternal suffering is justified. So, I am asking for considerations that would have something to do with the justificatory status of such provision. Instead, you basically gave me an earful of admonition about how such a fate is unavoidable for this person. That's completely irrelevant to my question.

Also, I'm not sure why you keep repeating that it is not your job to judge me, since that is also completely irrelevant to my question. I'm not asking you to judge me. I am basically asking for reasons to think the providing of such a fate as outlined in my hypothetical is justified; or deserved; or some such.

As for the rest, again, my honest take does not align with yours. In particular, I have virtually no confidence that the bible is (a) suitable to any sort of literal interpretation or (b) historically accurate. I think your Jesus god-man was no closer to instantiating the concept 'god' than any other astro-mythological figures, like Horus or Attis or Dionysus, or Zoroaster, or Mithras, or etc, etc, etc. How about Superman or the Incredible Hulk or Popeye? Should I have them in the running too? I realize your whole metaphysical worldview would crumble like a Jenga game if you removed the dubious idea that some water-walker roamed 2,000 years ago. That's your problem, not mine. I have my own set of problems, but feeling beholden to the soul-saving power of a 2,000 year old zombie water-walker born of a virgin, through his fulfillment of the bizarro doctrine of the scapegoat in order to appease his father, who also happens to be himself, thankfully isn't one of them.

No you did not adequately answer my question.

I will not be put into the position to decide in the Last Judgment for you.

I don't presume that I know what God will say to you. I will honestly tell you this what I believe:

"And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scolls were opened; and another scroll was opened which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by the things which were written in the scrolls, according to their works."

It says here that they were judged according to their works.
This could be simply God passing final judgement up each man's works.

After this it says - "And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."

Do not ask me if I know your name will be in the book of life.
Do not ask me if I know ALL of the ways in which your name might be included in the book of life.
I will not act as that final Judge. If you count that as inadaquate reply you'll just have to count it that way.

But I will go as far as to mention what Jesus spoke about condemning yourself already because of unbelief in Christ the Son of God. He taught -

"For God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

He who believes into Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed into the name of the only begotten Son of God."

If you say you do not believe in the Son of God, apparently you stand condemned already if I understand this saying rightly.

You may press me - "But what if I disbelieve HONESTLY ?"

It doesn't qualify it honestly or dishonestly. It simply says " ... he who does not believe has been condemned aleady, because he has not believed into the name of the Son of God."

Personally, I doubt that He was speaking of ignorance. I believe He is speaking of rejection, disbelief, refusal to believe.

The Apostle John adds that to disbelieve in this way is to make God a liar -

"He who believes into the Son has the testimony in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar because he has not believed in the testimony which God has testified concerning His Son."

If you ask me "But what if I disbelieve HONESTLY?"

The passage does not qualify whether the disbelief is honest or dishonest. In the previous verse is said that God rather than just man, has testified concerning the Son of God -

"If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, because this is the testimony of God that He has testified concerning His Son." (v.9)

If I understand this passage you will be made to realize that it is not just sonship that has testified concering the Son of God to you. God has testified concerning the Son of God to you.

There is another matter in which the Apostle John says makes a man a liar. He says if we say we also make God a liar - anyone, believer or non-believer, honest unbeliever or dishonest believer. If we have confidence that the scroll concerning us will contain no record of sinning, we are lying first to ourselves, to our own conscience -

"If we say that we have not sinned, we make HIm a liar, and His word is not in us." (1 John 1:10)

You may protest "But what if I HONESTLY think I am without sins?"
The scrolls concerning your life will not be "honestly" absent of the sins you have committed.

There may be places where you blamed yourself more than you should have. But there will no doubt be places where you absolved yourself but God who knows everything, did not. And there will be instances in which you feel convicted less than you deserve.

I related to you these things faithfully from the Bible.
You know a real friend is one who tells you the truth.

I say a real friend is someone who tells you the truth.
You may say "But what if I HONESTLY believe and even KNOW that all this is NOT the truth?"

Then we will just have to wait and see. Won't we ?

Again, I asked for reasons in virtue of which one should think that God's providing for this person's eternal suffering is justified.

God loves you. But God hates sin.
God in His love has made gracious provision for our sins.
Concerning this you say you have full confidence that God does not exist.
Then we'll just have to wait and see. Won't we?

God is perfect in holiness and perfect in righteousness.
Because He knew that you falling into sin could not free yourself He provided a Liberator for you in Christ.

Concering this One sent to justify you where you cannot justify your self, what have you said? You have said you are certain that this Jesus Christ doesn't "even come close" to manifesting Divinity.

Then we'll just have to wait and see. That is whether He came close and rather completely hit the mark of "God manifest in the flesh".

You say this so-called Son of God didn't even come close to your lofty standard. That is your gamble. You will live with its accuracy or inaccuracy.

So, I am asking for considerations that would have something to do with the justificatory status of such provision. Instead, you basically gave me an earful of admonition about how such a fate is unavoidable for this person. That's completely irrelevant to my question.

No sins in existence anywhere, at any time, from any being, within all eternity will NOT be dealt with in one way or another by this eternal and perfect God.

They will be judged in one of two places. Either those sins will be judged on the cross of Jesus at Calvary in His redemptive death - OR they will be judged on the day God looks to see if your name was recorded in the book of life.

This IS an admonition.

If your soul is separated from God and in your hatred you continue to insult God - you'll be sinning forever. And you will be under His judgment of sin forever as a result.

Do you want to gamble on some eternal non-being, non-existence of your soul ? Then we'll just have to wait and see. But if non-existence was the escape from judgment it is perculiar that Jesus agonized so to save us.

Robert Govette writes:

" 'There cannot be eternal suffering' you say. Will there not be eternal sinning among the lost ? Is God obliged to stay the endless flow of sin from the lips and acts of the lost ? 'You admit then, that it would be unjust in God to inflict eternal suffering solely because of men's past acts on earth.' By no means ! I account sin infinite.

This sentiment, that eternal punishment is unjest, comes from a partial judge . It is man, leaning toward his own race beyond what is just. It is a sinner inwardly bribed to give a verdict on behalf of sinners.

It is a set of felons pretending to condemn the laws of felony. It is one-sided - intense appreciation of pain ; but light appreciation of sin and its desserts. It is the sentiment of the ignorant. The best little apprehend of the holiness of God. It is the result of a heart that is "deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked." (Jeremiah 17:9)

Will you trust this sentiment of the heart? "He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool" Proverbs 28:26. It is the decision of a packed jury ..."

Also, I'm not sure why you keep repeating that it is not your job to judge me, since that is also completely irrelevant to my question. I'm not asking you to judge me. I am basically asking for reasons to think the providing of such a fate as outlined in my hypothetical is justified; or deserved; or some such.

You are asking me to accept your declared honesty.
You are asking me to look into your whole being as only God can, and make judgment as to your final fate.

I don't think we'll get much further here. If you are getting no help from me, I do not deny my limitations in discussing the matter.

And this last quote from Robert Govette, I suppose you can ignore. I write it for some readers who just may be receiving somee insight from looking on the exchange:

God, as Governor, must show, that He loves righteousness, and hates iniquity. How can He do so ? By rewards, and by punishments. He has laws, and laws have threats, and threats must be executed. God must be true. He must be a righteous Governor.

He spares, He corrects; for mercy rules now. But many are hardened by longsuffering. What is to be the result at last ?

Jehovah will show His own character . He will display on them His hatred of sin. Facts shall show, that He is not careless whether His law is obeyed, or not.

The Most High must win glory from every creature, whether friend of foe. That is the great reason of creation. The saved shall glorify God, by their endless happiness: the lost, by their endless woe. They will be hung in chains as an example to deter other worlds. That punishment is designed to deter others from like guilt, is again and again asserted of God. The stubburn son who would not be corrected was to be stoned. "So shalt thou put away the evil from you, and all Israel shall hear and fear." Deut. 21:21; 17:13; 19:20; 13:11

[Robert Govette, Eternal Suffering of the Wicked and Hades, Schoettle Publishing, pg. 11 ]

A short version:

" 'There cannot be eternal suffering' you say. Will there not be eternal sinning among the lost ? Is God obliged to stay the endless flow of sin from the lips and acts of the lost ? 'You admit then, that it would be unjust in God to inflict eternal suffering solely because of men's past acts on earth.' By no means ! I account sin infinite.

This sentiment, that eternal punishment is unjest, comes from a partial judge . It is man, leaning toward his own race beyond what is just. It is a sinner inwardly bribed to give a verdict on behalf of sinners.

It is a set of felons pretending to condemn the laws of felony. It is one-sided - intense appreciation of pain ; but light appreciation of sin and its desserts. It is the sentiment of the ignorant. The best little apprehend of the holiness of God. It is the result of a heart that is "deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked." (Jeremiah 17:9)

Will you trust this sentiment of the heart? "He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool" Proverbs 28:26. It is the decision of a packed jury ..."

God, as Governor, must show, that He loves righteousness, and hates iniquity. How can He do so ? By rewards, and by punishments. He has laws, and laws have threats, and threats must be executed. God must be true. He must be a righteous Governor.

He spares, He corrects; for mercy rules now. But many are hardened by longsuffering. What is to be the result at last ?

Jehovah will show His own character . He will display on them His hatred of sin. Facts shall show, that He is not careless whether His law is obeyed, or not.

The Most High must win glory from every creature, whether friend of foe. That is the great reason of creation. The saved shall glorify God, by their endless happiness: the lost, by their endless woe. They will be hung in chains as an example to deter other worlds. That punishment is designed to deter others from like guilt, is again and again asserted of God. The stubburn son who would not be corrected was to be stoned. "So shalt thou put away the evil from you, and all Israel shall hear and fear." Deut. 21:21; 17:13; 19:20; 13:11

I think your Jesus god-man was no closer ...

So Jesus died and rose for you whom He loves. But you respond with insults to call the Son of God a zombie - Someone who has far more self control than you do.

I know you are less of an opponent of the Gospel than Saul of Tarsus. And he latter wrote 13 of the 27 New Testament books.

" ... formerly was a blasphemer and a persecutor and an insulting person; ..."