14 Jun 07
6 edits
Originally posted by pawnhandlerIf you would watch the film, you would come to learn how ignorant your question is, as it demonstrates how the rampant sexual abuse at the hands of clergy is a direct result of the nature of the Catholic power hierarchy itself coupled with some dogmatic beliefs of both those in power and their followers.
Is there a movie you think everyone should watch about pedophile parents, uncles, aunts, and grandparents too? Or is your concern limited to a small group of predators?
To say that the problem of child molestation within the church is not substantially greater than the problem without is empirically in error, not just marginally but grossly. It is a false presumption that Catholics blinded by loyalty need to be disabused of.
14 Jun 07
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesI already have seen numerous cases on the news, 60 minutes, documentaries, etc., and I do know the horrors of priests being shoved from parish to parish. I have seen numerous interviews of the victims, and seen how the problem has also become out in the open in Ireland and at least a handful of other places as well. I knew a nun who was named in a court case because she had told the victim when he was a boy (and his whole class) in second grade that he should always obey priests. I am not blind to this horrendous problem. But due to various jobs I've had, I think it's safe to say that I've known at least a few hundred -- hundred -- victims of sexual abuse, and every single one was by a relative -- older brother, father, grandfather, uncle, aunt, mother "renting them out", step-father, but never once someone outside the family tree/household. However, these were all women who were abused as toddlers through teens. If you want to limit your statistics to boys, then it may be possible that more boys were molested by priests than by coaches, scout leaders, and other predators in positions of power.
If you would watch the film, you would come to learn how ignorant your question is, as it demonstrates how the rampant sexual abuse at the hands of clergy is a direct result of the nature of the Catholic power hierarchy itself coupled with some dogmatic beliefs of both those in power and their followers.
To say that the problem of child molestatio ...[text shortened]... t grossly. It is a false presumption that Catholics blinded by loyalty need to be disabused of.
14 Jun 07
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesTo say that the problem of child molestation within the church is not substantially greater than the problem without is empirically in error, not just marginally but grossly. It is a false presumption that Catholics blinded by loyalty need to be disabused of.
If you would watch the film, you would come to learn how ignorant your question is, as it demonstrates how the rampant sexual abuse at the hands of clergy is a direct result of the nature of the Catholic power hierarchy itself coupled with some dogmatic beliefs of both those in power and their followers.
To say that the problem of child molestatio ...[text shortened]... t grossly. It is a false presumption that Catholics blinded by loyalty need to be disabused of.
Statistics?
By “within the church,” I presume from context that you mean (a) the RCC, and (b) the clergy specifically?
Such a gross empirical error ought to be easily empirically established?
14 Jun 07
Originally posted by pawnhandlerIt's the hypocracy of the priests and the church in general that I find most disgusting. They allow this sort of thing to happen, keep it covered up, and even when it comes up the worst that happens is a slap on the wrist. And they have the gall to tell us we're all horrible sinners that need to repent! I mean, pot, kettle....
I already have seen numerous cases on the news, 60 minutes, documentaries, etc., and I do know the horrors of priests being shoved from parish to parish. I have seen numerous interviews of the victims, and seen how the problem has also become out in the open in Ireland and at least a handful of other places as well. I knew a nun who was named in a cour ...[text shortened]... ested by priests than by coaches, scout leaders, and other predators in positions of power.
14 Jun 07
1 edit
Originally posted by vistesdThere was a thread about a year ago here in which even lucifershammer conceded that the available numbers indicated that in the United States a random Catholic priest is over four times as likely to have molested a child as a random man.
[b]To say that the problem of child molestation within the church is not substantially greater than the problem without is empirically in error, not just marginally but grossly. It is a false presumption that Catholics blinded by loyalty need to be disabused of.
Statistics?
By “within the church,” I presume from context that you mean (a) the RCC, ...[text shortened]... clergy specifically?
Such a gross empirical error ought to be easily empirically established?[/b]
The movie I cite investigates explanations for the discrepancy, not the least of which is the Catholic Church's "bella figura" good image doctrine.
14 Jun 07
Originally posted by scottishinnzI just don't understand the whole notion of sending a perp to another parish...like a change of scenery means anything. Every time I try to figure it out, all I can come up with is the notion that the priests were in a position to blackmail the bishops or the bishops were afraid they were, like reporting the bishop for having a girlfriend ... or for also being a pedophile. I also don't understand why those parents who found out didn't go to the police. Yes, some went to the bishop (and we see what a swell idea that was) but I'm thinking if someone had been molesting my child, I'd want him crucified. I can't imagine a bishop having any words that would buy my silence.
It's the hypocracy of the priests and the church in general that I find most disgusting. They allow this sort of thing to happen, keep it covered up, and even when it comes up the worst that happens is a slap on the wrist. And they have the gall to tell us [b]we're all horrible sinners that need to repent! I mean, pot, kettle....[/b]
14 Jun 07
3 edits
Originally posted by pawnhandlerThe cited movie estimates that there have been over 50,000 victims of clergy abuse in the last 50 years in the United States alone, and that reports of clergy abuse elsewhere in the world are nearly completely suppressed.
Or is your concern limited to a small group of predators?
Here is one database containing some 5,000 molesters, which I would not characterize as a small group:
http://bishop-accountability.org/priestdb/PriestDBbylastName-A.html
Here is a list of dioceses in the United States. Note that in only 13 have there been no documented cases of molestation by clergy, and that some dioceses such as Los Angeles and Boston have literally hundreds of molesting priests:
http://bishop-accountability.org/priestdb/PriestDBbydiocese.html#AL
14 Jun 07
Originally posted by pawnhandlerWatch the movie. A great portion of the explanation lies in the official practice of "bella figura."
I just don't understand the whole notion of sending a perp to another parish...like a change of scenery means anything. Every time I try to figure it out, all I can come up with is the notion that the priests were in a position to blackmail the bishops or the bishops were afraid they were, like reporting the bishop for having a girlfriend ... or for als ...[text shortened]... want him crucified. I can't imagine a bishop having any words that would buy my silence.
14 Jun 07
Originally posted by pawnhandlerThat's not a very forgiving attitude. Understandable for an evolved primate, but not a work of a divine creator.
I just don't understand the whole notion of sending a perp to another parish...like a change of scenery means anything. Every time I try to figure it out, all I can come up with is the notion that the priests were in a position to blackmail the bishops or the bishops were afraid they were, like reporting the bishop for having a girlfriend ... or for als ...[text shortened]... want him crucified. I can't imagine a bishop having any words that would buy my silence.
14 Jun 07
Originally posted by vistesdStatistics
[b]To say that the problem of child molestation within the church is not substantially greater than the problem without is empirically in error, not just marginally but grossly. It is a false presumption that Catholics blinded by loyalty need to be disabused of.
Statistics?
By “within the church,” I presume from context that you mean (a) the RCC, ...[text shortened]... clergy specifically?
Such a gross empirical error ought to be easily empirically established?[/b]
Pedophile Priest Statistics http://www.priestsofdarkness.com/stats.html as well as statistics on other offenders and acknowledging the under-reporting
Some of their stats: # US clerics accused of abuse from 1950-2002: 4,392.
About 4% of the 109,694 serving during those 52 years.
# Individuals making accusations: 10,667.
The Wisconsin Psychological Association's survey found offenders distributed among the following professions: Psychiatrists 34%, Psychologists 19%, Social Workers 13%, Clergy 11%, Physicians 6%, Marriage Counselors 4%, and Others 14%.
# The Presbyterian Church stated that 10-23% of clergy have "inappropriate sexual behavior or contact" with clergy and employees.
# The United Methodist research (1990) showed 38.6% of Ministers had sexual contact with church members and that 77% of church workers experienced some type of sexual harassment.
# The United Church of Christ found that 48% of the women in the work place have been sexually harassed by male clergy.
# The Southern Baptists claim 14.1% of their clergy have sexually abused members.
From another site: http://www.rasac.org/education/statistics.html#02
250,000-500,000 pedophiles reside in the United States.
Source: U.S. Department of Justice
If 4,392 clerics were accused over that time period, or even if the actual number were ten times higher than that, it's still a minority.
If you want to vilify all child molesters, I'm with you. If you want to point out the horrors of clergy from all religions being sex offenders, I'm with you. If you want to make this just a Catholic thing, though, or make it somehow worse that it was done by Catholics than when the very same thing was done by a Southern Baptist or a Methodist or Presbyterian, you've lost me. That sounds more like the issue isn't about sexual abuse by clergy.
14 Jun 07
1 edit
Originally posted by pawnhandlerWhat would Jebus do?
You're right; it's not a forgiving attitude. Very astute.
Aren't all sins equal in the eyes of God? Have you never sinned? So, why should your sins be forgiven and theirs not, if they asked for forgiveness?
[edit; actually, I created a new thread for "forgiveness"]
14 Jun 07
1 edit
Originally posted by pawnhandlerThat's exactly right. My issue isn't about the sexual abuse per se. It's about the Catholic hierarchy of power and the Catholic system of beliefs and practices that foster and enable the abuse.
That sounds more like the issue isn't about sexual abuse by clergy.