1. Joined
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    14 Nov '06 19:223 edits
    if i got a bunch of well educated, wise, noble living people to write a book claiming i am the son of god and can perform miracles would you devote your life to me..? if not, why not..? if you say it's because i am not and i have no proof, would you be a little frustrated if i simply held this book in front of you and said but i am, it's written within these pages and these pages are truth..?
  2. Standard memberspiritmangr8ness
    Doh!!! Or--Are--I
    Springfield, USA
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    14 Nov '06 20:12
    Originally posted by rooktakesqueen
    if i got a bunch of well educated, wise, noble living people to write a book claiming i am the son of god and can perform miracles would you devote your life to me..? if not, why not..? if you say it's because i am not and i have no proof, would you be a little frustrated if i simply held this book in front of you and said but i am, it's written within these pages and these pages are truth..?
    If 11 men conspired to tell a lie. And this lie was contrived to promote thier agenda and maintain the status quo. However there was no form of communication as in modern times like the media. Things like radio, television, email, internet or even postal systems. Each of the 11 men were arrested in their own location with hundreds and even thousands of miles between them. Faced with execution they all gave the same account of events as witnessed, these men remained steadfast in their testimony upon threat of injury. Human nature would suggest that anyone of them would have changed his mind to preserve his on life if any of them were lying. But they did not; not only did they not recant their account of events. They remained steadfast right through thier executions. Freind that is not the nature of a liar. A liar will lie only as long as it supports his agenda or the status quo. In any event faith is belief, sustained by commitment. The nature of lying lacks sustained commitment overtime. I must admit that their may be some who can sustain a lie, but usually a group of individuals someone will always break rank rather than face death. All Police interegation is based upon this premise were their is more than one suspect in a crime or conspiracy
  3. Joined
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    16 Nov '06 12:152 edits
    Originally posted by rooktakesqueen
    if i got a bunch of well educated, wise, noble living people to write a book claiming i am the son of god and can perform miracles would you devote your life to me..? if not, why not..? if you say it's because i am not and i have no proof, would you be a little frustrated if i simply held this book in front of you and said but i am, it's written within these pages and these pages are truth..?
    I think that spiritmangr8's post was very good and you should consider it.

    I would add that it is not as simple as you think because Jesus Christ has gotten on the INSIDE of us Christians. And there is an amount of INWARD witness that we are on the right track. Here are some passaages to show the inward testifying of the truth of the gospel:

    1.) "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.

    But this He said concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed into Him were about to receive." (John 7:38,39)


    The Holy Spirit is given as a flowing river of divine life in our innermost being.

    2.) "The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God" (Romans 8:16)

    There is a deep inner bearing of witness of the Holy Spirit with our human spirit that God is our [dear] Father, our Daddy, our Abba Father, So intimate and so sweet. We sense that we are God's family deep within.

    3.) " ... he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will manifest Myself to him." (John 14:21)

    From within Jesus is manifesting Himself to His lovers and believers. It is not just objective nodding in outward historical facts, though they be true. It is the living Jesus manifesting Himself to His believers.

    4.) "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (JOhn 14:23)

    One knows when the Father and the Son have come to make an abode within them.

    5.) "And in this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He gave to us." (1 John 3:24)

    6.) "And as for you, the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone teach you; but as His anointing teaches you concerning all things and is true and is not a lie, and even as it has taught you, abide in Him." (1 John 2:17)

    An anointing is like the rubbing in of an ointment. A divine rubbing is rubbing God's divine nature into us the believers. This rubbing in of the divine anointing teaches us concerning the Christ Whom we have received. This anointing teaches us to abide and remain in the sphere and realm of this living Person within us.

    7.) " ... you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise, Who is the pledge of our inheritance unto the redemption of the acquired possession ..." (Eph. 1:14)

    The Holy Spirit has been given to us as a pledge, a garuantee, a foretaste of a fuller enjoyment yet to come.

    We have the Holy Spirit as an appetizer of fuller and richer feast to come when our bodies are resurrected and glorified.

    8.) "He also who has also sealed us and given the Spirit is our hearts as a pledge" (2 Cor. 1:22)

    This repeats the truth above in point 7. We are sealed with a pledge of the Spirit of Jesus Christ. - "The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)

    9.) "Now He who has wrought us for this very thing is God, who has given to us the Spirit as a pledge." (2 Cor. 5:5)

    God has not just left us to nod in agreement with objective doctrine. He has dispensed His Holy Spirit as a pledge. This living pledge is a foretaste of the eternal joys to come.

    10.) "In that day you will know that I am in My Father and you in Me and I in you" (John 14:20)

    This day is the day of our realization of the resurrection of Christ. Spontaneously as we receive the resurrection we receive the resurrected One Jesus. And we know that this Man is now in us and that He is in the Father. God and man have been united as one. We realize that the resurrected Christ brings God Himself into our lives.
  4. Cape Town
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    16 Nov '06 12:52
    Originally posted by spiritmangr8ness
    If 11 men conspired to tell a lie. And this lie was contrived to promote thier agenda and maintain the status quo. However there was no form of communication as in modern times like the media. Things like radio, television, email, internet or even postal systems. Each of the 11 men were arrested in their own location with hundreds and even thousands ...[text shortened]... regation is based upon this premise were their is more than one suspect in a crime or conspiracy
    So are you saying the Mormons are correct?
  5. Standard memberspiritmangr8ness
    Doh!!! Or--Are--I
    Springfield, USA
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    16 Nov '06 18:02
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    So are you saying the Mormons are correct?
    I cannot answer, because my knowledge of the Mormorns perspective is limited. However I found most of what Joseph Smith said questionable about the origins of the faith.
  6. Joined
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    17 Nov '06 00:12
    Originally posted by spiritmangr8ness
    If 11 men conspired to tell a lie. And this lie was contrived to promote thier agenda and maintain the status quo. However there was no form of communication as in modern times like the media. Things like radio, television, email, internet or even postal systems. Each of the 11 men were arrested in their own location with hundreds and even thousands ...[text shortened]... regation is based upon this premise were their is more than one suspect in a crime or conspiracy
    A lie. What an interesting thing. What if the faith in a lie were so powerful that over time it was believed as truth and they stuck to their stories because they thought them true.

    In the past, people used myths to explain unexplainable situations. These myths were know to be faulse, yet over time, people came to believe so much in these myths and their truth that they would kill animals and people in certain places and circumstances to apease these lies.

    This is what I believe the bible is. A fictional story contrived from the imagination of a writer (in times beyond memory, people did not sign their work out of humility). Purhaps like "Paradise Lost" by John Milton. He wrote 12 books I believe on a fingle chapter of the bible. No longer than 2 pages or less.

    But what do I know. I'm just a child.
  7. Standard memberspiritmangr8ness
    Doh!!! Or--Are--I
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    17 Nov '06 01:56
    Originally posted by lareindubaccon
    A lie. What an interesting thing. What if the faith in a lie were so powerful that over time it was believed as truth and they stuck to their stories because they thought them true.

    In the past, people used myths to explain unexplainable situations. These myths were know to be faulse, yet over time, people came to believe so much in these myths an ...[text shortened]... hapter of the bible. No longer than 2 pages or less.

    But what do I know. I'm just a child.
    What if it were all true, the only logical explanation for consistency in their account of the facts. Liars always alter their story under duress. All of these men were martyred
  8. Cape Town
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    17 Nov '06 09:22
    Originally posted by spiritmangr8ness
    What if it were all true, the only logical explanation for consistency in their account of the facts. Liars always alter their story under duress. All of these men were martyred
    Where did you get the information that all the biblical writers were martyred?
    Consistency? You must be reading a different book!
  9. Joined
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    17 Nov '06 09:43
    Originally posted by jaywill
    I think that spiritmangr8's post was very good and you should consider it.

    I would add that it is not as simple as you think because Jesus Christ has gotten on the INSIDE of us Christians. And there is an amount of INWARD witness that we are on the right track. Here are some passaages to show the inward testifying of the truth of the gospel:

    1.) [b]"H ...[text shortened]... realize that the resurrected Christ brings God Himself into our lives.
    Self-delusion is a wonderful thing.
  10. Joined
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    17 Nov '06 09:55
    Originally posted by lareindubaccon
    A lie. What an interesting thing. What if the faith in a lie were so powerful that over time it was believed as truth and they stuck to their stories because they thought them true.

    In the past, people used myths to explain unexplainable situations. These myths were know to be faulse, yet over time, people came to believe so much in these myths an ...[text shortened]... hapter of the bible. No longer than 2 pages or less.

    But what do I know. I'm just a child.
    This book the Bible is actually a library of 66 books. They were written over a period of 1600 years.

    Among the authers are priests, shepherds, a farmer of sycomore trees, a military general, a statesmen, a governor, poets, scribes, fishermen, net menders, tent makers, assistent and attendent to a preacher, a scholar, a king, a tax collector, a physician ... There was quite a spread of types of indivduals who composed this book. And they did so over 16 centuries.

    Yet the Bible has a common thematic line through its entire composition. I see a divine mind holding it together and conveying a common thematic line throughout. It is hard for me to think of the Bible as the product of one person's imagination.

    I think the God of all creation is trying to communicate with mankind in this book the Bible.
  11. Cape Town
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    17 Nov '06 10:03
    Originally posted by jaywill
    This book the Bible is actually a library of 66 books. They were written over a period of 1600 years.

    Among the authers are priests, shepherds, a farmer of sycomore trees, a military general, a statesmen, a governor, poets, scribes, fishermen, net menders, tent makers, assistent and attendent to a preacher, a scholar, a king, a tax collector, a physici ...[text shortened]...
    I think the God of all creation is trying to communicate with mankind in this book the Bible.
    You seem to know more about these authors than most Bible scholars.

    The Bible as a whole is far less consistent than other religious works such as the Qur'an.

    One would think that God could find a better way of communicating!
  12. Joined
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    17 Nov '06 10:205 edits
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    You seem to know more about these authors than most Bible scholars.

    The Bible as a whole is far less consistent than other religious works such as the Qur'an.

    One would think that God could find a better way of communicating!
    Please specifically, and I mean specifically, tell me of another book which does this:

    In the first several thousand words tells us

    1.) The origin of world

    2.) The origin of human beings

    3.) The origin of animals

    4.) The purpose for which man was created

    5.) The origin of the institution of marriage

    6.) The first murder in history

    7.) The origin of industry

    8.) The origin of music

    9.) The origin of agriculture

    10.) The origin of man's evil behavior

    11.) The origin of the spread of the nations over the earth

    12.) The (general) plan of salvation of the human race

    13.) The origin of human government

    Specifically now name for us another book which takes as many words to convey these things as the Bible does.

    No generalities ... a specific other book which tells us of such 13 basic and vital matters in as many words.
  13. Joined
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    17 Nov '06 10:38
    Originally posted by jaywill
    This book the Bible is actually a library of 66 books. They were written over a period of 1600 years.

    Among the authers are priests, shepherds, a farmer of sycomore trees, a military general, a statesmen, a governor, poets, scribes, fishermen, net menders, tent makers, assistent and attendent to a preacher, a scholar, a king, a tax collector, a physici ...[text shortened]...
    I think the God of all creation is trying to communicate with mankind in this book the Bible.
    Really, then why all the major contradictions - given that subsequent writers had access to previous works, their in consistencies show a remarkable lack of intelligence.
  14. Standard memberHalitose
    I stink, ergo I am
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    17 Nov '06 13:31
    Originally posted by sugiezd
    Really, then why all the major contradictions - given that subsequent writers had access to previous works, their in consistencies show a remarkable lack of intelligence.
    ...their in consistencies show a remarkable lack of intelligence.

    Err... or a refusal on the part of the writers to alter the given text for social/political/intellectual expediency.
  15. Joined
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    17 Nov '06 15:43
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Please specifically, and I mean specifically, tell me of another book which does this:

    In the first several thousand words tells us

    1.) The origin of world

    2.) The origin of human beings

    3.) The origin of animals

    4.) The purpose for which man was created

    5.) The origin of the institution of marriage

    6.) The first murder in history ...[text shortened]... s ... a specific other book which tells us of such 13 basic and vital matters in as many words.
    Why do you want one book for all of those things?

    Give me a couple of hours and I'll do you one in 10% of the words.
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